-3 camber up front lololol

[boro92]

Is it possible to adjust to these settings with a stock suspension, only mods úss system? Would the settings hamper straight line acceleration? Or is it to aggressive for street, drags strip and occasional road course (once twice a year at best)?

These settings are good for about 5000-6000 miles at best before the tire is ruined. If you street drive it you’ll ruin them from inside tire wear. If you track drive it you’ll ruin them from outside tire wear like the photo I posted above.

Well, honestly, that is toe dependent.
Camber doesn’t eat tires nearly as bad as toe does. If you run 0 toe with some camber, I wouldn’t worry too much.

As for West’s outside tire wear, it was due to him purposely inducing understeer by hitting the gas all the time and everywhere. However, more camber could have helped that a little Honestly, due to how heavy this car is and how much rubber is in the suspension, I suspect -3 isn’t enough. I will see after the next track day. I bought a temp gun to measure temps across the tire. Based on what wear I can see from the street, I am using the entire tire already…sooo -3 is probably on the low side for a car without sphericals anywhere.
Ideally, you have sphericals on the LCA and the upper arms–which I believe west has.

[moogas1]

Is it possible to adjust to these settings with a stock suspension, only mods úss system? Would the settings hamper straight line acceleration? Or is it to aggressive for street, drags strip and occasional road course (once twice a year at best)?

These settings are good for about 5000-6000 miles at best before the tire is ruined. If you street drive it you’ll ruin them from inside tire wear. If you track drive it you’ll ruin them from outside tire wear like the photo I posted above.

Well, honestly, that is toe dependent.
Camber doesn’t eat tires nearly as bad as toe does. If you run 0 toe with some camber, I wouldn’t worry too much.

As for West’s outside tire wear, it was due to him purposely inducing understeer by hitting the gas all the time and everywhere. However, more camber could have helped that a little Honestly, due to how heavy this car is and how much rubber is in the suspension, I suspect -3 isn’t enough. I will see after the next track day. I bought a temp gun to measure temps across the tire. Based on what wear I can see from the street, I am using the entire tire already…sooo -3 is probably on the low side for a car without sphericals anywhere.
Ideally, you have sphericals on the LCA and the upper arms–which I believe west has.

I understand, sort of, toe would definitely be stock to 0 degrees but car loves to eat the outer tread on the front tires as you all know. So, I’m basically looking to minimize it as much as possible while the the same time improving the handling characteristics of the car. Don’t get me wrong with the euro-code úss system the car is a beast but could use a tad more, lol. I’m always in search of that extra little edge. I apreciate the feedback! I’ll be watching and learning…

[boro92]

Is it possible to adjust to these settings with a stock suspension, only mods úss system? Would the settings hamper straight line acceleration? Or is it to aggressive for street, drags strip and occasional road course (once twice a year at best)?

These settings are good for about 5000-6000 miles at best before the tire is ruined. If you street drive it you’ll ruin them from inside tire wear. If you track drive it you’ll ruin them from outside tire wear like the photo I posted above.

Well, honestly, that is toe dependent.
Camber doesn’t eat tires nearly as bad as toe does. If you run 0 toe with some camber, I wouldn’t worry too much.

As for West’s outside tire wear, it was due to him purposely inducing understeer by hitting the gas all the time and everywhere. However, more camber could have helped that a little Honestly, due to how heavy this car is and how much rubber is in the suspension, I suspect -3 isn’t enough. I will see after the next track day. I bought a temp gun to measure temps across the tire. Based on what wear I can see from the street, I am using the entire tire already…sooo -3 is probably on the low side for a car without sphericals anywhere.
Ideally, you have sphericals on the LCA and the upper arms–which I believe west has.

I understand, sort of, toe would definitely be stock to 0 degrees but car loves to eat the outer tread on the front tires as you all know. So, I’m basically looking to minimize it as much as possible while the the same time improving the handling characteristics of the car. Don’t get me wrong with the euro-code úss system the car is a beast but could use a tad more, lol. I’m always in search of that extra little edge. I apreciate the feedback! I’ll be watching and learning…

Yeah in that case, put the toe to 0…and it’s going to help you a lot. Not to mention, you’ll get even better turn-in.
Because you have the USS bars, the front roll stiffness is greater…meaning, the front end leans less, and therefore the tire will not deflect as much (due to unwanted positive camber change). So that alone will help with wear.
A nice streetable amount of camber is between -2 to -2.5. You can accomplish this amount of camber with adjustable upper arms, or a mild drop. Once you go above -2.5, you’re getting into real track territory, and will begin to sacrifice tire longevity in a more noticeable way.

What are your front tire pressures btw? Increasing front pressures will also improve steering response and reduce outer edge tire wear. On the street, I usually run 38-40psi.

[moogas1]

Is it possible to adjust to these settings with a stock suspension, only mods úss system? Would the settings hamper straight line acceleration? Or is it to aggressive for street, drags strip and occasional road course (once twice a year at best)?

These settings are good for about 5000-6000 miles at best before the tire is ruined. If you street drive it you’ll ruin them from inside tire wear. If you track drive it you’ll ruin them from outside tire wear like the photo I posted above.

Well, honestly, that is toe dependent.
Camber doesn’t eat tires nearly as bad as toe does. If you run 0 toe with some camber, I wouldn’t worry too much.

As for West’s outside tire wear, it was due to him purposely inducing understeer by hitting the gas all the time and everywhere. However, more camber could have helped that a little Honestly, due to how heavy this car is and how much rubber is in the suspension, I suspect -3 isn’t enough. I will see after the next track day. I bought a temp gun to measure temps across the tire. Based on what wear I can see from the street, I am using the entire tire already…sooo -3 is probably on the low side for a car without sphericals anywhere.
Ideally, you have sphericals on the LCA and the upper arms–which I believe west has.

I understand, sort of, toe would definitely be stock to 0 degrees but car loves to eat the outer tread on the front tires as you all know. So, I’m basically looking to minimize it as much as possible while the the same time improving the handling characteristics of the car. Don’t get me wrong with the euro-code úss system the car is a beast but could use a tad more, lol. I’m always in search of that extra little edge. I apreciate the feedback! I’ll be watching and learning…

Yeah in that case, put the toe to 0…and it’s going to help you a lot. Not to mention, you’ll get even better turn-in.
Because you have the USS bars, the front roll stiffness is greater…meaning, the front end leans less, and therefore the tire will not deflect as much (due to unwanted positive camber change). So that alone will help with wear.
A nice streetable amount of camber is between -2 to -2.5. You can accomplish this amount of camber with adjustable upper arms, or a mild drop. Once you go above -2.5, you’re getting into real track territory, and will begin to sacrifice tire longevity in a more noticeable way.

What are your front tire pressures btw? Increasing front pressures will also improve steering response and reduce outer edge tire wear. On the street, I usually run 38-40psi.

I’m usually in that neighborhood 39-40 front and 41 rear street haven’t taken her to a road course, yet. At the strip 41psi all around works better for me. I tried other pressures as per rear wheel drive cars hurts times and mph if anything. I had it 41 and front felt actually was sliding out on me if I pushed hard. I had some errands to do today and had some fun on S ramps and exits it feels so much better with lower pressure. The rear actually feels like it’s coming around a little now depending if I actually give her more throttle. Took me awhile to get get used to that feel with this car. It’s amazing how much potential they have with some methodical tweaking…

[moogas1]

Now, do u recommend more pressure when road racing or less? I’ve heard that lowering the front pressure with the setup I have will improve handling by not allowing the car understeer as much. Obviously I don’t have a lot of road racing minimum at best.

[boro92]

Now, do u recommend more pressure when road racing or less? I’ve heard that lowering the front pressure with the setup I have will improve handling by not allowing the car understeer as much. Obviously I don’t have a lot of road racing minimum at best.

The whole “lower pressure for more grip” thing is a generalization, and doesn’t account for the car’s behaviour at various stages of the corner. Upping front pressure will increase steering/turn-in response at the expense of the front tire breaking away/giving up grip more suddenly. That is, you are trading progressive/delayed grip loss for increased response. The advantage of higher front pressure is only for the entry stage of a corner. The trade off is less mid corner bite.

Similarly, dropping pressure will delay grip loss (to a point–because too low will just speed up grip loss also) at the expense of response. Car will be more sluggish in response to driver input but take longer to break away when the traction limit is reached. This is opposite to the above. A lower front pressure makes the car understeer more AND eat more tires at the entry stage of a corner. However, you will have more mid corner front-end bite.

The rear is a bit more complicated, as it depends on how you drive, and whether or not you throttle steer, trail brake and how you like to make corner corrections to get rotation. Without knowing those details, the rear is simply “lower psi for more grip”. I’d go down to as low as 34psi on a street tire. No lower though.

Every tire is different, and there is a proper way to do tire pressure (which I do not do - it takes a lot of patience, recording data on an excel sheet and varies with ground temps). That said, I found best results when I ran 39.5front, 40.5rear hot pressures. I set the rear higher than the front to encourage the back end to break away more swiftly for more rotation when the car was stock. Pressures don’t have to be so high if your sidewalls are stiff. Sadly, continental sidewalls are marshmellows that need all the help they can get! Same with PSS.

[moogas1]

Now, do u recommend more pressure when road racing or less? I’ve heard that lowering the front pressure with the setup I have will improve handling by not allowing the car understeer as much. Obviously I don’t have a lot of road racing minimum at best.

The whole “lower pressure for more grip” thing is a generalization, and doesn’t account for the car’s behaviour at various stages of the corner. Upping front pressure will increase steering/turn-in response at the expense of the front tire breaking away/giving up grip more suddenly. That is, you are trading progressive/delayed grip loss for increased response. The advantage of higher front pressure is only for the entry stage of a corner. The trade off is less mid corner bite.

Similarly, dropping pressure will delay grip loss (to a point–because too low will just speed up grip loss also) at the expense of response. Car will be more sluggish in response to driver input but take longer to break away when the traction limit is reached. This is opposite to the above. A lower front pressure makes the car understeer more AND eat more tires at the entry stage of a corner. However, you will have more mid corner front-end bite.

The rear is a bit more complicated, as it depends on how you drive, and whether or not you throttle steer, trail brake and how you like to make corner corrections to get rotation. Without knowing those details, the rear is simply “lower psi for more grip”. I’d go down to as low as 34psi on a street tire. No lower though.

Every tire is different, and there is a proper way to do tire pressure (which I do not do - it takes a lot of patience, recording data on an excel sheet and varies with ground temps). That said, I found best results when I ran 39.5front, 40.5rear hot pressures. I set the rear higher than the front to encourage the back end to break away more swiftly for more rotation when the car was stock. Pressures don’t have to be so high if your sidewalls are stiff. Sadly, continental sidewalls are marshmellows that need all the help they can get! Same with PSS.

Wow, got it. Very interesting read and clear concise instruction. I got rid of the conti’s, now run Bridgestone Pole Positions much better sidewall stiffness. I was thinking to switch to PSS’s because they are lighter but now I understand what I’d be giving up. Choices are there just need to decide which is more important for my application. Haven’t reached the crossroads yet but when I do will see what I’ll be doing next. Basically want to have an all-around performer.::. Regardless thanks for your time and knowledge.

[westwest888]

I start my track mornings at 29 F and 31 R. That gets up to 41 hot with my driving after 2-3 laps of a road course.

[rs4nightmares]

Now, do u recommend more pressure when road racing or less? I’ve heard that lowering the front pressure with the setup I have will improve handling by not allowing the car understeer as much. Obviously I don’t have a lot of road racing minimum at best.

The whole “lower pressure for more grip” thing is a generalization, and doesn’t account for the car’s behaviour at various stages of the corner. Upping front pressure will increase steering/turn-in response at the expense of the front tire breaking away/giving up grip more suddenly. That is, you are trading progressive/delayed grip loss for increased response. The advantage of higher front pressure is only for the entry stage of a corner. The trade off is less mid corner bite.

Similarly, dropping pressure will delay grip loss (to a point–because too low will just speed up grip loss also) at the expense of response. Car will be more sluggish in response to driver input but take longer to break away when the traction limit is reached. This is opposite to the above. A lower front pressure makes the car understeer more AND eat more tires at the entry stage of a corner. However, you will have more mid corner front-end bite.

The rear is a bit more complicated, as it depends on how you drive, and whether or not you throttle steer, trail brake and how you like to make corner corrections to get rotation. Without knowing those details, the rear is simply “lower psi for more grip”. I’d go down to as low as 34psi on a street tire. No lower though.

Every tire is different, and there is a proper way to do tire pressure (which I do not do - it takes a lot of patience, recording data on an excel sheet and varies with ground temps). That said, I found best results when I ran 39.5front, 40.5rear hot pressures. I set the rear higher than the front to encourage the back end to break away more swiftly for more rotation when the car was stock. Pressures don’t have to be so high if your sidewalls are stiff. Sadly, continental sidewalls are marshmellows that need all the help they can get! Same with PSS.

That’s what I always thought. Higher pressure leads to better responsiveness but a more sudden loss of grip. Does the link below have a typo then? It suggests that lowering rear tire pressure will decrease understeer. Obviously, it isn’t detailed enough to include effects of each change in different phases of a corner, but I thought that increasing rear tire pressure would promote more rotation from the rear on throttle.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=58

[boro92]

That’s what I always thought. Higher pressure leads to better responsiveness but a more sudden loss of grip. Does the link below have a typo then? It suggests that lowering rear tire pressure will decrease understeer. Obviously, it isn’t detailed enough to include effects of each change in different phases of a corner, but I thought that increasing rear tire pressure would promote more rotation from the rear on throttle.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=58

That chart only uses the terms “decrease understeer” and “decrease oversteer”. Without knowing which parts of the corner, and under which conditions (throttle on/off, braking on/off, steady state etc), it’s really impossible to say that they are wrong. Though in all of my rwd race track experience, lower pressures always improved rear end bite–especially when it’s time to put the power down in a corner (can put down power earlier with less pressure). So with that in mind, yes, it’s a potential typo.

I honestly can’t think of one situation where decreasing rear pressure would reduce understeer–unless we’re talking about making the back tire so soft that it just flops around.

Tire pressures need to be thought of like spring rates. There is a point where too soft will take away traction.