500k diesel VW/Audi recalled for emissions bypass

Axel · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

So has VW killed anyone yet like GM and Ford have?

bangoman · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

Nope but VW and their diesels doesn’t fit the EPA’s electric vehicle agenda

westwest888 · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

Every car sold is a liability to a manufacturer. The higher the cost to update the vehicles and bring them into compliance, the higher the liability. The truth is GM, Ford and VW aren’t worth $50B, $55B and $55B respectively. They’re not worth anything after the liabilities are subtracted out.

Running a 20th century business model in the 21st century is a losing proposition. The saddest part is VW’s only innovative software feature was to cheat the government. Underinvestment in connected, remotely updatable vehicles is going to put them in the dark ages for another decade. A certain California manufacturer could have brought literally every vehicle into compliance in 24 hours without a dealer visit. Then again, they wouldn’t bet the company on a motor invented in 1891.

Axel · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

VAG CEO Winterkorn just resigned.

westwest888 · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

The CEO of Porsche will likely get the nod to at least be interim CEO, if not the elected CEO.

Jspazz · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

That was already done this morning.

I wonder how likely that the same programming isn’t already on the 3L Audi and Porsche diesels. And how likely is it that BMW and Benz don’t have some form of this?

sakimano · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

and Ford and whomever else

to be honest though it seems a far too dangerous reputation risk to take. Hard to believe they did it.

Former GM chair Bob Lutz was on and talked about why they never went big with small clean diesels to compete with VW…basically the GM engineers said ‘we can’t figure out how they do it…but we can’t compete. They’re just better at this than us’.

Turns out they weren’t lol.

drob23 · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

Pretty sure the 3.0L TDI engines use the Urea treatment. The new 2.0L diesels (E288??) also come with Urea treatment.

Jspazz · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

sakimano:

Jspazz:

westwest888:

Axel:

VAG CEO Winterkorn just resigned.

The CEO of Porsche will likely get the nod to at least be interim CEO, if not the elected CEO.

That was already done this morning.

I wonder how likely that the same programming isn’t already on the 3L Audi and Porsche diesels. And how likely is it that BMW and Benz don’t have some form of this?

and Ford and whomever else

to be honest though it seems a far too dangerous reputation risk to take. Hard to believe they did it.

Former GM chair Bob Lutz was on and talked about why they never went big with small clean diesels to compete with VW…basically the GM engineers said ‘we can’t figure out how they do it…but we can’t compete. They’re just better at this than us’.

Turns out they weren’t lol.

Lol at that quote. Yeah it’s crazy. My bro has a A3 TDI, going to plug in the cable and check it when I see him next.

True, about the urea/Adblue/DEF. The BMW 2.0L diesel uses it, and most other diesels sold here do.

westwest888 · December 8, 2019, 5:25pm

The problem was the Passat was already about $2-3k more expensive than the cars in that class. Adding the urea system would have made it $4-$5k more expensive. So they swapped out emissions for efficiency and fooled the incompetent leaders at the EPA who have an $8 billion a year budget. Some guy at an NGO testing diesel efficiency in West Virginia figured it out and informed the EPA. IMO, the head of the EPA needs to resign.

clochner · December 8, 2019, 5:26pm

Interesting editorial from today’s Journal:

The VW Emission Bug: Why would the company install a ‘defeat device’ on its U.S. cars?

Volkswagen AG ’s reputation and share price have taken major hits after the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board (CARB) last week accused the German auto maker of gaming vehicle-emission rules. VW deserves a keelhauling if the charges are true. But regulators and VW first should produce the motive and method for the alleged malfeasance.

On Friday the EPA in conjunction with CARB charged VW with installing “defeat devices” that disable nitrogen oxide emission controls in five of its clean-burning diesel models. EPA has threatened up to $18 billion in fines for the nearly half million cars VW sold in the U.S. between 2009 and 2015 that contain the device. The Justice Department is investigating.

VW’s stock has since plummeted nearly a third. On Sunday CEO Martin Winterkorn promised to cooperate with regulators “to clearly, openly, and completely establish all of the facts of this case,” including an external investigation. Volkswagen’s U.S. chief Michael Horn apologized and said the company had been “dishonest.”

On Tuesday VW said 11 million diesel cars world-wide were equipped with the device and it would set aside $7.3 billion, more than half of its annual profits, to cover penalties and recall costs. On Wednesday Mr. Winterkorn resigned. The slow-rolling revelations raise more questions.

To wit: Who decided to install the bugs, and what was their motivation? Did VW executives approve or know? Do the devices serve a purpose other than evading U.S. emission regulations? The public knows little outside the government narrative provided by EPA and CARB letters to VW last Friday.

The government investigation was prompted by a 2014 research project between West Virginia University and environmental nonprofit International Council on Clean Transportation, which found that NOx emissions from VW’s 2012 Jetta and 2013 Passat soared in real world driving conditions and exceeded Clean Air Act regulations by five to 35 times.

After CARB confirmed the disparity between on-road and lab testing, VW in December 2014 recalled a half million cars to make software fixes. In May CARB reran its on-road test and determined that VW’s adjustments didn’t significantly reduce NOx emissions. CARB says it then met several times with VW, which suggested potential technical justifications for the discrepancy.

However, after the agencies threatened to withhold government certification for its 2016 diesel models, VW on Sept. 3 said the vehicles contained a “defeat device” to disable NOx emission-controls under normal driving conditions.

According to EPA, a software switch senses whether the car “is being tested or not based on various inputs including position of steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine’s operation and barometric pressure” and these “inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure.” Under normal driving conditions, the switch activates a separate engine calibration.

In other words, the cars are electronically programmed to produce compliant emissions results only during government testing. On highways and streets, they spew 10 to 40 times as much as allowed under U.S. law.

Defeat devices aren’t new or a diabolical German invention. As EPA notes, mechanisms that deactivate emissions controls may serve a legal purpose if they protect vehicles against damage. But manufacturers are then required to disclose to regulators their presence in certification applications, which VW didn’t.

Two decades ago GM had to cough up $45 million for installing defeat devices in nearly half a million cars that overrode carbon monoxide controls. In 1998 seven U.S. manufacturers of heavy-duty diesel engines, including Caterpillar and Volvo Truck, settled federal charges of implanting devices that disabled NOx controls for $1 billion.

What regulators don’t ever explain is that these defeat devices serve a functional purpose, which is usually to increase performance and fuel efficiency. They want to pretend that emissions regulations are a clean, free ride. Until now, VW—which advertised its environmental friendly and powerful engines—was in on the charade.

Auto experts have posited that VW’s defeat device was intended to boost fuel economy and torque, which are two big draws of modern diesel cars. VW’s 2015 Passat gets 44 miles per gallon on highways. Trouble is, engines that are designed to burn more efficiently—and therefore emit less carbon—release more NOx. They also have less oomph. EPA and CARB should fess up to this trade-off, and the wrongdoing involved ought to be precisely identified.

The immediate upshot is that VW will have to recall the lemons to bring them in compliance with government rules. Any fix will likely cost several thousand dollars per vehicle, reduce performance and increase carbon emissions. Will drivers even want the government’s clean bill of health?

VW deserves to pay for any intentional wrongdoing, but the rest of the industry and the country need to know whether this is the great deception that EPA alleges or the kind of well-known regulatory trade-off that is being harshly punished for the first time.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-vw-emission-bug-1443047920

mixofia · December 8, 2019, 5:26pm

Slightly off topic, but generally speaking, how do the performance ECU tunes that are readily available (in gas or diesel) compare with the VW “tune”. Do the follow the same principles with results in the same general direction?

westwest888 · December 8, 2019, 5:35pm

VW sales drop 25%.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/1/9828006/volkswagen-diesel-scandal-november-sales-decrease

“Last month, VW’s US sales were off nearly 25 percent from November last year, with the standard Golf (-64 percent), Jetta (-23 percent), Beetle (-39 percent), and Passat (-60 percent) making up the majority of the losses. All in, VW sold 23,883 cars in the US last month, versus 31,725 last November.”