I think the RS4 will always be quicker (ET wise…slightly). It seems to be able to squeeze a lot out of a given amount of power/torque.
With that being said I don’t think there’s going to be that much of a difference.
Look at JHM
JHM stage 1 S4 and Rs4 are both 6 PSI, yes? Both are making around 425-450 whp. Both are running high 11s at 116-118 MPH. For some reason some of the stage 1 S4 times I’ve seen are more mid to low 12s @ 110-113 MPH…whereas I’ve never heard of a stage 1 RS4 running like that. If we look at best results for each kit though, they’re nearly identical.
JHM stage 2 RS4 is 8 PSI, and must be making around 500-525 whp…and I can’t see a stage 2 S4 being any less power than that. The RS4 may have that ‘quickness’ edge putting down 11.1 @ 125 already , but I wouldn’t be shocked to see a stage 2 S4 run 11.2-11.3 @ 125. I was alone on this when I was in California…the guys thought I was being optimistic. Maybe they were trying to under-promise/over-deliver. But the data I pulled from that still neutered stage 2 S4 was impressive.
There’s certainly not a stage or half-stage gap there.
To that end, I think JHM needs to abandon ‘stage’ talk and go to something else.
Stages is gay. (APR, JHM)
High pressure/low pressure is gay (AMD)
Stages seem to have become cliche ’ d like 5 years back. From an enthusiast perspective: I don’t like the idea that progressive numbered / named stages feels like a forced decision since 1 more, or 1 higher implies better. Like the Dinnan badges on a bmw.
Some setups and modifications are just fine, as a designed system, without missing anything that a further stage implies. Some upgrades get better with further improvements ( suspension, engine, inter-coolers… ) And the further upgrades ( stages ) are completely different flavors.
Not calling them stages, ( early concept of .9, 1, 1.1 ) was important, since it was not seen that way.
I like that, but its been done before in other markers, and the tuner chest beating leads to run away number inflation. packages that start as 6,7,8 and 9 end up at 15-17. IMO it has the same downside as stages, as higher numbers implies “better”… What if JHM500, is spectacular for a certain type of driver, and JHM600 is what a different driver wants… Just an example, as not all kits go up in power without negative tradeoffs. ( see turbo systems )
btw… The Naming of the S605, and R770 was along those lines. and the letter, was the CHRA bearing type.
s - Journal
R- Ball Bearing.
Agree. It starts too look like a tag-board of letters and signs.
I guess so but I’m really just referring to JHM. If JHM puts ‘500’ on something, I don’t think anyone will think it’s tuner chest beating. They have a pretty good reputation of delivering the goods.
As for bigger being better, I don’t think people are too hung up on that. If bigger = more power, that’s pretty straightforward. I have a tough time figuring out how less power is better for anyone in this particular situation.
i.e. for whom is a JHM 8 psi kit making 500+ whp and running 11.1 @ 125 ever going to be ‘worse’ than their 6 PSI kit?
If people can’t figure out what the various kit levels mean, or what’s good/best for them, they’re too stupid to cater to. Making your products or marketing to protect the lowest common denominator isn’t a great business plan lol.
In the previous post, you referred to APR, AMD, and JHM. Unless you were just commenting on how lame the naming conventions used.
Bigger is not always better, a 1400 whp GTR is useless for anything but street / drag racing. Power delivery makes technical driving worthless / dangerous. Every market has the 1/4 mile chest beaters, but its not the progress everyone wants.
Your example of 6, and 8 psi kit, is different, without any direct experience its likely there is no downside since most of the components are the same.
"
If people can’t figure out what the various kit levels mean, or what’s good/best for them, they’re too stupid to cater to. Making your products or marketing to protect the lowest common denominator isn’t a great business plan lol.
"
Isnt that my point as well… comes back to the customer knowing what they want. Putting crank HP in the product name solves this how?
Yes, just saying there are 3 kits with nomenclature I find gay.
What does TTS say for their kit? can’t remember
[quote]Isnt that my point as well… comes back to the customer knowing what they want. Putting crank HP in the product name solves this how?
trying to add to the conversation.
[/quote]
I don’t think anyone on earth thinks 500 is better than 600 if that was the name used.
You mentioned 1200 WHP cars being too extreme to be enjoyable for anything other than racing and that’s fine, but let’s focus our attnetion to B7 RS4s because that’s what we’re talking about.
If you have a 500 in the name because the kit makes 500 hp…or 600…or whatever…I think it’s fine personally. The 600 is better than the 500 in every category other than your pocketbook as the consumer.
these cars are nothing like those firebreathing axe murderer GTRs with the $100,000 builds. So I don’t think you can have a ‘more is worse’ argument here. We are talking about modestly powered 4 door AWD family sedans here (relative to the supercar world of monster TT builds).
That’s what I think is being lost. I am really only referring to JHM’s kits. If AMD or APR or ABC want to have names I find lame, that’s fine by me. I’m buddies with the JHM guys so I would like to see them do something a bit different.
I think low pressure and high pressure is cumbersome and engineerish. But I like your intentions (to get away from stage this stage that).
On the same page, Something needs to be done to show how much work is involved from going from one level to the other. Using a stage number seems to betray that.
Naming and promotion is something I find challenging. HP / LP was more descriptive than stage .9 and stage 1.
The S4 motors will get a bump in RPM, not too much, but a bump. What most people fail to see is that, running up the RPMs isn’t going to gain you power, unless your cams and entire motor system supports it. Spinning the motor isn’t a direct relation to power, the parts on and in the motor dictate when and where the motor will make power and when it will run out of breath.
The RS4 motors, I can’t go into detail but they will make more power without getting extra RPM. When you take the motor down you can see there are a few things you can do to help make better power and not need to drive up the RPM.
The JHM stage 1 S4 supercharger kit is motor limited. The throttle needs to be shut, rev limit lowered and the power pulled way back to keep the motor together. This puts the stage 1 S4 just a few steps behind the Stage 1 RS4.
The JHM stage 2 supercharger kit for the S4 requires a built S4 block and major fuel updates. The JHM stage 2 supercharger kit for the RS4 has already shown to be a monster. I personally think it will still be a few steps further then the S4 stage 2
The JHM stage 3 supercharger kit for the S4 will be where the gap is closed between the two. The JHM stage 3 supercharger kit for the RS4 will push even deeper into the 10s then their stage 2 but, that won’t be released unless you have a built motor. The JHM RS4 motor program really helps eliminate some of the things that need to be changed on the RS4 motors at higher power levels.
Then the end game, the JHM stage 4. Given the great working relationship that JHM has with Vortech and just how much the two companies have been working together, there is a stage 4 program in the works.
As for stages, if you don’t have stages of your kit there is no sense in calling it stage anything. Here in the case of the JHM supercharger kit, there are several stages of the kit. Due to that, it made sense to have stages for each level. That’s not to say it has to stay that way. It just seemed to make more sense due to the fact that the JHM supercharger kit can come in so many forms or ‘stages’
Im glad its something that JHM is looking into, as you said not every car needs it, but at a timing service it would be a worthwhile upgrade, Hope JHM explains more on this later!
I was under the same impression with the Valvetrain especially considering the high revving nature of the beast, I may be completely mistaken but i thought i had read somewhere that the valves where hollow? or something in the vavletrain was lightened significantly to help them to move better with the higher RPM, just wondering if that would have any issues later on down the road now with the motor being forced fed?
When i do get the block and heads built, I plan on heading into it with the no expense will be sparred mindset, especially considering I never plan on selling this vehicle, but I’m just very interested to see on a stock RS4 block what the real weak point would be, ie: like the s4 motors where 425-450 was safe but 500 failure would be happening, Wondering if it will be the same for the RS, with say 650 being safe and 700 being the point of failure (hypothetical numbers of course) and what part actually fails, on the S4 it was the Rods correct? wonder if its the same or something different for the RS.
ya i wouldn’t expect them to be pushing it higher then stock, the fact they lowered it was great for the stock block cars(8k), just interesting to see if it returns to the 8250 after the block gets built. which after reading CV post its looking like it doesn’t, which is great!
[quote=“CountVohn,post:129,topic:5117”]
CV really appreciate the info and insight you post!! Im excited to see how the platform still keeps getting pushed by JHM! glad to hear the lower Rev limit is kept, and as for Stage 4… that sounds scary… but i want it haha
As for calling them stages, what about trim?
ie:
JHM T1 - supercharger
JHM T2 - SC + IC + fuel pumps
JHM T3 - SC + IC + fuel pumps + smaller pulley or whatever
and then adding a + for built motor program, and another + for built heads.
so if i had a built heads, and motor running a trim 2 from JHM it would be: Audi RS4 JHM T2++
not everyone might like this but just adding to the convo, i think the stages of the supercharger should be kept separate from the built blocks/heads, even though they are supporting mods.
Or they could call them different tiers just to be different than stages.
I think the built engine and heads should be listed differently than the tiers or stages too. The plus and minus thing has always sounded stupid from listening to the B5 guys.
I really like where JHM is headed with their supercharger program. But from what it sounds like they will go to a bigger blower rather than using nitrous with the SC.
Oh god he brought the plus signs out…damn oscermeyer…lol
I think stages are ok to a point if it is a single company with stages and everything stays consistent. I’ve just always hated VW 1.8t and B5 “stages” because guys just think slapping a bigger turbo to a car makes it a stage 2 or B5 guys that can’t afford fueling and say they are stage 3- (or barely faster than a tune only b5…lol)
But then APR has their ECU tune for the B7 RS4 or Stage III supercharger kit…so where is the stage I and II kit? Or stage II tune? It is fucking confusing, not to mention they have an old Stage III supercharger kit!!! So if you come across a stage III APR RS4 for sale who knows what your getting (yes I know you can find out, but I’m thinking about the idiots that know nothing)
Why didn’t they just call it the B7 RS4 APR1740 supercharger kit?
But it is hard when there can be stage 1, stage 1 IC, etc…
JHMS1
JHMS1i
JHMS2
JHMS3
JHMS4
It is pointless to worry about built motor and so on because that should be a given for the S4s and we will see what JHM allows on stock RS4 motors. They may need to be built for a stage 2+ variation or something.
I really don’t want it to be as you described, I think the Trim or Tier as Jimmy said would work good, because thats what you are getting with there kit, so in theory there would be no way to run a stage2-, plus i really hope no one would try and do that? make much more sense to get supporting mods, then limping by. had never really thought about the fact that stage2 for an S4 does require a built motor, definitely makes it tricky in coming up with something other then stages, Saki’s Idea of JHM500, or JHM600 also doesn’t sound to bad.
Ozcarmeyer you say it doesn’t make sense to try and limp buy with out supporting hardware, EXACTLY, but that is what happens in the B5 world and the high school 1.8t 2.0t scene.
Fair enough, I would hope that would be different with the cars we are talking about here, although with some of my discussions with certain people I have been proved wrong before.
In theory, shouldn’t a stage 2 S4 be pretty competitive with a stage 2 RS4? Considering you need a built motor to even go stage 2, I would have to assume that they make the most out of the set up given. $12,000 Or so is going to be quite a setback just to pick up half of a second in an 11 second quarter mile.
