RS4 = 100 (a little over really)
George or Dan’s RS4 = 365 whp or about 460 crank or about 110/litre.
That’s all cool for engineering guys, but as far as results, I don’t care if it’s 4 litres like the M3 or 6.2 litres like the 6.3 Benz…the end result (performance) is what truly matters.
Getting that sort of horsepower out of small displacements is an engineering feat. Similar horsepower out of big displacement IMHO just means that there is more margin for safety.
The other thing is that there are lots of choices in regards to tuning domestic V8’s right down to cam choice … I’m not sure the same can be said for the German V8.
The other thing to me is: a V8 is a V8, change the exhaust to get the note you want! 
Alternatively … get both! ;D
being a mopar guy I have to say that the domestic motors are a fail.
I look at it like this. A motor is a vacume of sorts. We can look at the VE of the motor or vacume of a motor.
simply put american motors are less efficent. I have to jump on the new ford bandwagon how ever as the new 5.0 is one of the top motors YET it still falls short of the 2003 4.2 motor of the RS6.
sure the end result is power. Still with gas going up you want to see a company that can make a car make good power and still have a efficent target. It just seems that when the domestic auto makers want more power they just resort to bigger holes. On the other hand look at the germans. They take what they have and imporove on it.
The S4 and the RS4 are a great example of using development time and real tech more so then just the old just make it bigger
Well you’re a Mopar guy so you just don’t get it from the get-go.
MOPAR
Move
Over
People
Are
Raceing
Im on the pro german side. Its been a embairsment for years that the german cars keep getting more and more hp from smaller and smaller motors. While the domestic cars seem to think that the solution is just make it bigger.
I don’t find the Zo6 ZR1 impressive. I do find the Audi Rs6 TT 5.2 motor massivly impressive
hey Im vintage B5 statous with the mopar. I tell people how fast it is or was when it was running the rest of the time I just tell people how fast it could be if it wasn’t plauged with issues.
ford.
Found
On
Road side
Dead
MOPAR
Miscellaneous Oddball Parts Assembled Ridiculously
Most Often Passed At Races
Mostly Old Parts And Rust
Move Over People Are Racing
My Old Pig Ain’t Running
Mechanics Offer Pinto As Replacement
joe your a Ford guy. FTW.
Ford
First On Race Day
I do have to agree that there is a disturbing trend to go bigger and no to go better. I personally feel that ford isn’t part of that. The 4.6 is an example it was one of the best motors for a long time. Not the most powerful but stout. The not so well known ford falcon the best car ever with the in line turbo 6.
Still I Think it would be hard for any of us to say that the Audi team isn’t top of the list for getting lots of power out of a very small motor. While Im a deep ford guy at heart the Audi motors are something to amaze at.
my honest opinion is people get way too caught up in displacement as a metric for the ‘size’ of a motor. The only size that matters to me is the physical dimensions and weight.
Thats why you see LS motors in everything, an ohv small block is a small motor imho even though you can do a 511cid with the right block. An 8.1L motor thats maybe 60lbs heavier than the 4.2 and a few inches longer.
I personally think keeping a design from 1955 and evolving it from a carbed, lead burning draft tube polluting dinosaur into the gen V 3v per cylinder, cam-in-cam VVT, direct injection, emissions complient motor is impressive.
All the tech is nice, but the ohv big displacement motor achieves the same goal in a far simpler and cheaper manner.
How much does an LS3 brand new from chevy cost? How much does an RS4 motor that makes less power at peak and far less power throughout the powerband cost?
As far the VE, wait for the gen V motors. Without VVT the LS motors have always been handicapped with baby emissions cams (hence why they make soooo much more power when switching to a 0.620"+ monster). Take away the vvt from the 4.2 and put in a cam that will idle without it and watch the guts get ripped away. My point is, with a well developed vvt system (like the viper v10s vvt) they are going to be able to put in a more aggressive lobe and still have it idle. The 3v will help the revs get higher, smaller valves weigh less for the given area (the 2v flows just fine, its just costly to rev).
For fuel economy, big displacements burn more fuel, but big displacements make more torque at less effort. You can spin a 0.50 gear on a T56 like nothing with a stock ls1 and just sit at 1700rpm cruising on the highway.
The only issue I see with the big displacement is that the big bores required mean long motors, which limits the ability for a fwd based awd system like Audi uses.
Just my honest opinion, not trying to attack anyone.
[quote=“beemercer,post:14,topic:2925”]
Good question, however I think your $ per hp comparison isn’t so valid. Costs in Germany are ridiculous all around so you can never really argue that cost per hp proves the validity of a product by comparing it to another product from another market on another continent using a far stronger currency.
I’m sure the Indian made Tata engines will be better hp per $ to buy than the LS motors. Doesn’t mean shit unfortunately. Better yet, look at the cost of Jaguar V8s in a couple of years once TaTa gets everything sorted.
my point was a ohv motor is cheaper than a comparable dohc motor. The coyote 5.0 crate motor is about the same cost as an LS3 crate motor but makes less power. I can’t think of dohc cam motor that makes 430hp for $6k.
Really good informative read here.
Honestly I would be in a shelby GT500 if they werent so big and ugly…
Cadilllacs V is another option however again its too big heavy AND something is wrong with the fenders in person (just doesnt look right)
similar here, I got into Audis becuase I wanted a manual V8 awd car which for some reason is not an easy find. I like the pushrod motors, not many of the cars they come in (G8 GXP and GTO aside, those are both on my list). I’ve started to realize that awd really isnt a necesitty for me so I’ve started to move on.
snow is a bitch. There are tons of great cars I’d think about owning if it didn’t snow 4 feet per year here. But since it does, and since I don’t like the ‘compromise’ of running a summer car + a winter car, AWD Audis with big engines crammed in little cars are a nice fit.
It’s an oddity for us to have snow, but when we do. . . ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE! haha, it’s pretty comical.
For me it was
I was coming from an E46 and had grown tired of the E46, so I couldn’t go M3 (plus they were more then the S4 and often older). I really WANTED to like the CTS-V, but it just wasn’t there for me. Sometimes I think I made a mistake, but I know 3yrs in I still love the S4, I wouldn’t still have that love for the V I don’t think. And really, at the time, those were about the only cars I could justify, b/c as said the GXP hadn’t even come out yet and was more expensive then the more refined S4.
As far as hp/liter, which I know holds some water but isn’t the whole debate, I’ve always been amazed the numbers Porsche manages to produce. I know they have their own tricks etc, but still quite impressive and with extremely low drivetrain loss, more of that power actually makes it to the ground.
I used to be a huge Ford mustang fanatic, and always pictured myself owning one when I had the chance. When the 03’ cobra came out I figured that would be first nice car I would own. Obviously it turned out to be an S4 instead. Domestic ‘muscle’ cars are nice no doubt, but to seriously consider them from larger perspective it’s not much of a competition.
The new mustang 05 + I think was a retro design to appeal to older generations, GM did the same thing with all but the corvette as did Dodge. Those just don’t appeal to me in any way (Im only 27), and then you start to compare the build quality, styling, AWD, distinct engineering that went into our cars and it’s just not a contest in my mind.
They ‘executive’ performance sports sedan fits me and my personality best, but some people I guess just prefer the larger retro styling, supercharged, not quite as nice build quality of domestic v8’s that focus on power and not much else.
I’m not sure how much snow we get here anynore (enough to ski on thats all I care, anything more is too much) but I find myself not driving in it regardless unless its to work which are 2 and 7 miles from home so its not bad to baby a car home in it. I think my point of view has come about from being stranded so much with only having one car for it all, a DD and a sunday driver/show car/track car is the route I want to go in the future and unfortunately an Audi while a terrific DD isnt in my budget at the moment.
I wanted something with a V8 and a manual transmission. I started looking at 01-04 Mustang GT’s but a quick insurance quote was a BIG reality check. They wanted $2400 per year. It was getting close to winter and I got sick of looking around. I stumbled uppon a 2002 A4 3.0 tip at a local dealer with 55k on it. Clean as can be and it was a Texas car so there was no corrosion anywhere. Insurance quote was only $1100 per year or so, so I bought it.
The A4 was a snoozefest and it got whooped by every car on the streets, including my mom’s Jeep Liberty. So, I sold it for almost 3000 more than I got it for and got into an S4 with a real transmission. Drove the S4 back from PA with absolutely no experience driving manual. NONE.
Here’s the shocker: My insurance only went up $80 per year. I guess there is a discount for manual transmission cars because 85% of American’s cannot drive a manual. Ergo, it’s less likely to be stolen.
ahh yeah forgot about insurance… I had originally looked into an STi years ago (18 yo at the time)… the $420/month insurance quote sealed the deal on that. The S4 was only $230/month about 6 months later.
Yeah I don’t understand how so many kids have Evo’s and STi’s. I got a similar quote last year on an ‘05 STi. The insurance is absolutely nuts on those cars because of all the jackass fast n’ furious kids thinking they’re Paul Walker