ignition timing and performance

B8 S4
#10

He graphed the logs. Timing and airflow below.

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/196920timing.jpg

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/255152boostPSI.jpg

Moogas is running APR 93 Stg 2, he added a little 100 to help his heavy timing correction and relogged - although I could barely get anything due the low resolution he had 1 line with the following values:

RPM=6565, MAF=1292 kg/hr, and ign angle=24.7 degrees with still a tiny bit of correction. Moogas is going to see a little higher load but I suspect his ignition angle will be not far under this curve at all with enough octane.

#11

Fifth time: can you post the log these graphs were made from? virgin?

#12

Karma for you again. I too wondered where these magic logs were that these guys kept talking about. Seems that drobs post and logs would be the ones we should be looking at now right. What am I missing there. Drob just kinda posted logs that shows none of this is an issue.

Also why is quoting sean@apr an official fact of anything. Not to sure on the pecking order over at APR but I dont think sean tunes the cars.

seems like lots of speculation. From the talking points and the information given it seems like there is correction on a stock car so why are we talking about correction. Is is ok that the stock tune has correction but similar correction on the APR tune is now bad

#13

AZT you said you did a review of the CW vs APR. Can you cut and paste that here in a new thread. Maybe I have this wrong but it seems like something is wrong and we know Bvdr is a CW fan and that appears to be part of his bias

#14

He didn’t post the raw logs, he posted a visual representation of the log data. If you want the raw logs I’m sure he’d provide them if you ask.

Why don’t you analyze moogas’s logs? He’s a trusted AR member and seeing the same thing. His timing appeared to be approaching mid-upper 20s it seems (with 100) if he gets better logs.

If you guys plan to imply this Mat guy on AZ with his ‘graphs’ is a fabrication in the grand AZT-bhvrdr conspiracy about APR’s B8.5 timing, well… drat you meddling kids, and we almost got away with it! Next on our agenda was that GIAC runs too rich. I had 3 people lined up on AZ with fake graphs showing 0.65 lambdas and stories of black smoke engulfing Prius owners. Watch out REVO you’re next.

#15

No one is saying there is a conspiracy. What there is here is a rush to conclusions about “APR is overtimed” when the issues could be something else. You guys say the root cause is aggressive ignition timing, I showed you my car was doing fine with 93 octane on a stg 2 93 file.

It helps when the logs under consideration are being presented by the owner of the car, since they can try and log different parameters, under different conditions, make changes and over time update the status. This is pretty simple problem solving 101. Scouring the internet for data that you didn’t collect to back a case without that person providing the context is exactly why we don’t trust you guys and want to see the actual logs.

Mike@cw has always used other users logs to try to support his claims to CW being safe and running fine…“well other guys with APR stg 2 are having problems, so anything that seems wrong on my car is also fine”. That was the fundamental undercurrent to this all. Everything is being mapped down to a simple transitive property based on “timing” and “knock”. To support an agenda (which is my opinion and one seemingly shared by many here).

Here is the post http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=3310.msg98928#msg98928

I know Jran mentioned he is pulling 8 degrees as well. I dont think his car is going to blow up over that but it would be nice to see that tightened up a bit.
[/quote]

#16

For me the biggest issue is that AZT and Beaverdiver have this conspiracy theory about drob

they asked him to log his car WITHOUT e85 influencing the results. So…after a couple of days of driving, running down his tank, drob put in a full tank of 93 octane detroit gasoline, and logged his car

Same nice results he saw at the track.

AZT and beaverdiver have just COMPLETELY ignored those results. Why? because they don’t fit their theory. If a car can fill up with 93 from a normal gas station in a bankrupt city, and run withonly a couple of degrees to 4 degrees pulled (same as the 8-1 93/E85 results), it blows their theory out of the water.

How do they address that?

  1. they say they need to see more parameters
  2. they call drob a liar and say he added more E85 (or that he didn’t fill up and still has the same mix as Friday

This is why these guys are useless. It’s fun being right, but when you’re wrong, just say ‘ok let’s move on’.

#17

Well you never logged how high/aggressive your actual timing was now that you reduced the knock correction? I’d still like to see a log of that (in conjunction with the knock cylinder values) as i bet it will be quite impressive for Stage 2 pump cars.

But I’ll agree that one shouldn’t jump to conclusions about 1 person’s data just because it seems to fit a trend. I don’t think that was the intent, and then things got ugly, and I think each side just dug into their position. I say lets just go forward with open minds and analyze the data as we see it.

#18

Actually all I wanted to imply is that the timing you show in upper 28s on 93 tune - these guys are running the 100 tune, for whatever reason, thinking it’s 93. Not sure why or how.

I have compared what you sent on graphs in both these threads, and by all accounts it looks like 100 tune. On 93 tune stage II, there is no WAY the timing gets to the upper 28s unless there is a very weak air charge. Hence why I keep asking for the original logs.

I have many many logs from the last 3 years to compare to (but almost all stage II) on race, pump, APR, REVO, GIAC. I’d be interested to see what Tsivas thinks, he has a bigger log collection of different cars than me.

Give me any log like you show, I did just see one that I believe was moogas.

#19

J- upper 28s for timing advance on any pump File is not something I have seen in any stage 2 car I have logged. Something is not right there for sure.

Most of data I have for pump files has pump file timing just crack the 20 range. And we have probably the best testing conditions here.

25+ range is usually for any race file (100/104).

Lambda for a/f on most of these tunes @wot is in 0.75-0.8 range.

#20

When then maybe alot of APR 93 customers are getting 100 octane tunes by accident 8) If that is considered the 25+ range than Moogas is included (and I don’t know what it actually peaked at as a better resolution log is needed).

Also peak timing (redline) is not where the worst of the correction occurs in the data I’ve seen, but it is more the mid-range. I’m curious tsivas what typical timing do you see at 4500rpm for a 93 tune vs a 100 tune?

Anyone who wants to post some logs in here (of RPM, actual ignition angle, and knock correction in at least a few cylinders) is certainly welcome.

#21

11-12 degrees @4500 on pump
19-20 degrees @4500 on race gas files

#22

Sounds about right.

Now I personally will hit close to 19 degrees on APR 93 with enough E85, otherwise it corrects hard to say 12-13 at best. But this is Stage 1 so i’d expect to be 1-2 degrees above Stage 2 at least.

Lets look at an APR 93 Stage 2.

In Moogas’s July log (after adding race fuel) he appears to hit ~18 degrees @4500rpm and no correction. On APR 93 (correct me if I’m wrong Moogas).

This is in contrast to his original log on pump gas (that Mike borrowed) where timing was WAY down near the range you posted above but with up to 8 degrees of knock correction going on. Obviously there are variances here but that’s a swing you can’t ignore IMO.

You tell me what you think

#23

How about you post your 93 logs finally and we can talk about that. Isn’t that what you want

Include a log with RPM, MAF, IAT, ignition timing angle and IM pressure. Show as many tune files as you have (stock, 91, 93, 100)

Do you have EMCS file switching or are you a 13+?

It is entirely possible that moogas has the 100 file - it tracked perfectly to any of the APR Stage II v2 100 octane file logs I’ve seen. I’ve seen his log, but it didn’t have any MAF or IM pressure.

Edit:
Here’s a deal: I’ll karma you for every day you post one of your log files. I’ll smite you for every day you don’t, thus 20 days and you’re gone. Others may make this go faster.

#24

Maybe some of y’all were getting tuned when all that APR shit was hitting the fan, and someone wanted to leave their mark, so to speak, on their soon-to-be former employer.

#25

It’s very weird how you’ve asked him for some data nearly 10 times and all he has done since is deflect like crazy.

When he asked drob for some data, drob posted it next day, and when it conflicted with azt’s theory, instead of accepting that he was wrong, he chose to call drob a liar and insinuate he doctored up the log.

I don’t know why anyone is bothering with the guy after that. He’s already on the smite train.

#26

Now that I have the interior of the car set up how I want with everything clamped down, I’m going to run some logs at a future track day on REVO 1+. January at the latest. The Surface Pro 4 looks like it is not total garbage and will suffice - I believe this will fit in the glove box. Is the wifi OBD2 RossTech setup the one to get? It’s like $399 or whatever.

#27

This is the first time he asked for a log from my Stage 1 car. The other guy he asked 4 times about had posted the relevant data in an AZ thread and I thought he could find. He couldn’t so then I linked to it. It’s really not that weird.

Drob actually hasn’t posted a log yet of both actual timing+correction (both of which relate here). And I never called Drob a liar. Drob, sorry if I insinuated it. It isn’t easy to trust someone you are being flamed by but I have concluded you are an honest guy.

It is pretty clear that people are still just bent on picking me apart than move forward with any constructive discussion on real data. So what’s the point of me sticking around and entertaining you? Right.

#28

I have the surface 3 for logging, it’s actually pretty decent. But I think it sucks without a keyboard, which is another $130. The surface pro 4 just came out a day or so ago and is much more expensive. See if you can find a surface pro 3 on discount, that’s the best bang for your buck. I will probably get a surface book because I’ve decided using a tablet for a laptop kind of sucks.

#29

I’m just asking you to post a log. I finally saw moogas’ log but not thanks to you. And it didnt have any load data.

Now that I know you have the same thing, why can’t you post one? You just talk about it.

You can just leave like you say, and then at least we know you weren’t being truthful about having those logs in your car.

Post them, hey, maybe we can help you. It’s easy. If your log looks like moogas’, then having everyone have a look will definitely help you.