Into (long) and Questions about O2 sensor failures - P0030

Hey all,

Long time stalker, first time poster. What good is a thread without a picture of these timeless beast ;D


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2847/11498334793_1b92dd8198_c.jpg

1 - XRnAu6W by jedelste89, on Flickr

I’ve had the car for over a year and absolutely love it. This isn’t my first audi as I’ve been through an audi 90 and audi 100 wagon. The 90 was a great little (5 cylinder) car that aged so well and hit 300,000 miles before we moved on. The family also shares a B8 S4 DSG which is really a great car for the money. I intended to get an extended warranty on the RS, but have found it to be such a tank that I decided modifying it to my taste would be worth while. I started drooling over all the RS4s with exhaust. Almost got my hands on a standard tubi then almost went with a GMG cat-back, but after being patient I put an order in with JHM for a resonated set-up. The cat-back was a piece of stainless automotive art, but still had it on the car the day it came in. That put a huge grin on my face for about a month when I was left wanting more. By the way a standard down pipe RS with JHM cat-back is a very civilized tame set-up that had minimal drone and quiet as stock cruising. Didn’t wake up the neighborhood which was precisely what I was going for. Next, down pipes. I thought long and hard on which JHM set-up to go with. Everything told me v-bands catted. I somehow tricked myself into saving a couple $$ and went piggies as I felt that was a sufficient catted set-up for performance and sound. I do intend on going cat-less 2.75" in the future as I want a flame thrower. This is what I would consider a stepping stone mod that has been a great value per performance. At the same time I didn’t feel like finding out what gains were to be had on a stock tune that had no idea how to take advantage of all the performance the increased flow, diameter, x-pipe, sebring mufflers that had been added to the vehicle so I got the JHM 93 tune.

I would highly recommend the tune to anyone on the fence. It has to be one of the best mods out there for a bolt-on RS4. The throttle response is superb and has to be one of the best I’ve ever felt, it’s just so linear and predictable. I was worried it would be like S mode, which sometimes on bouncy roads the throttle would jump under my foot even braced against the side, but no, it’s just so smooth and no non-sense. Around town the RS would need some revs to keep up with the crazed automatic drivers and I felt like the torque was just lacking around town. Now it just flows so effortlessly. Something that really shocked me was how much smoother shifting was, I mean any shift 1st to 2nd, 2 to 3, 6 to 4, 3 to 2, it just doesn’t matter it catches gear perfectly almost every time. I don’t see how anyone needs to re-learn how to drive after a tune as it’s much, much easier. I do sense that taking off in 1st, from a complete stop, has that extra torque that the stock clutch isn’t bothered by at all, could be a hint more difficult, but come on it’s an awd high powered v8. Just got back from a long trip down the highway and the car has been transformed. I use to shift to 5th to pass occasionally and that is completely unnecessary now. The car in 6th gear is amazing, it just pulls and pulls with lots of torque. I used to think the B8 was a torquey engine and it really is, but the RS definitely just moved a step ahead. Anyone ever notice how big american v8s can whip lash you/passenger with some on and off throttle, that’s exactly what the RS can do now as well as the torque is there at any moment in any gear. Drive the car civilly around town and it feels completely stock, even a hint smoother. Running through the gears is a much more urgent experience as the car revs so much faster. I’ve only run 2 tanks through the car and not even sure if it’s fully adapted, but all I can say is wow. Bravo JHM for being a true tuner of naturally aspirated cars.

If you have made it this far into my story then bare with me. On my way back from the shop (2 hour drive, CEL at one hour mark) I got a CEL. Pretty odd I thought as the car has all new fluids/filters running strong and smooth before I got the work done. I scan the car and pick up P0030 code indicating the heater circuit is no longer operational which means my pre-cat O2 sensor can not properly work until the car is up till temp or possibly not work at all. Certainly had me worried as with the increased performance I want everything operating perfectly. Car starts in single digit temps no problem and operates completely normal. I love the cold start on the tune by the way, much much better then stock. On my interstate trip back I got an indicated 21mpg so I know it’s running normally as that was at 80mph avg. I’ve spoke with the shop and they want me to bring the car in to check it out, but I’m thinking I need to know what’s going on before I pay anyone to troubleshoot it. I spoke with Jake @JHM and he is assures me everything is alright and helped me understand how easy it is for the O2 sensor to fail after down pipe modifications. I believe the tune lets it breath even more so than just down-pipes on stock tune so it would definitely be handling a lot more flow all the sudden. Talked to Saki at the same time and seems like this is a pretty common failure or common for a shop to not be delicate enough with our O2 sensors being sensitive/fragile. Either way I need to get this corrected and decided to get a new O2 sensor and hopefully install it within the next week or so.

So I’m curious if anyone else has had an O2 failure on their B7. Has anyone had my specific code? Any diy remedies or places to check. Seems as if this is an odd code. Appreciate any input and glad to be part of the AR forums as you guys are a very sensible bunch that can see through the BS.

Justin

Welcome to AR, Jed. We are definitely a sensible bunch! Car looks fantastic. I’m sure the RS4 guys will chime in regarding the O2 issue.

Welcome to AR Justin! Glad to have you here!

that pic looks so rich. Good camera?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7393/11498248435_8fafa4970a_b_d.jpg

ps as for the o2 sensor it sounds like the code is definitely pointing to you needing B1S1 replaced, but keep looking in case there’s anything you can do to avoid the $200 sensor cost etc.

When my exhaust was installed, my B1S1 died as well funny enough. I had it replaced, and no problems. I looked at it like this…these things don’t last forever and are pretty important, so I don’t mind replacing it at 50,000 miles or whatever. I plan to replace the B2S1 as well as all my coilpacks etc. in the next wee while as I just like keeping things fresh. 50,000 miles is a fair amount of life to get out of a sensor so don’t feel bad!

My buddy who is big into photography went out with me and captured some great pics. I only uploaded 2. He wasn’t proud of them, but I thought they are great compared to my iPhone shots. We will be going out again in spring for a more formal shoot. No idea on his equipment as I don’t speak that jargon.

I’m with you on doing a look over on all connections and such, but I’m going to stomach the small cost on a “wear and tear” part. I will feel so much better knowing the car can dial it self in properly with that sensor working. Definitely will take a cautious approach to down pipe installation in the future. I think I’ll just replace the faulty one this time and leave the others alone. Interesting coincidence on the sensor. I’ve been thinking about my coil packs as last winter I had a misfire. Resolved itself and was a one time mishap on a cold start (I think it was like 5 degrees out). Car has gone some time in good health, but I always like being pro-active when it comes to maintenance.

Thanks for all the welcomes!!

Does anyone have any actual proof that the new flow kills the sensors? Aside from it happening a lot on Audi’s, I can’t find cases of the same thing happening on any other platform.

Should increasing the boost and going catless at the same time kill the sensors on my Cobra? It didn’t, and it didn’t happen on any other Cobras. No cases of it happening on Subarus, Evos, Corvettes, etc.

I don’t know if this is something that I would be able to put my finger on… I can say it has been consistant when you look across all the platforms if the 02s are of a higher mileage adding more power tends to blow them. On the 2.7T and 1.8T it was almost a given if you got a tune on your ko3 car you had better get 02s

exhaust work seems like an easy time to damage the wires or the filiment in the 02s. This is something we see often

Not many domestic vehicles have widebands, right? I wonder if the sensitivity of the VAG sensors has anything to do with it, kinda like Chris mentions.

well it happens. Can you unkill them for us when they die, since you own a Mustang?

I also had both my B1/2 S1 sensors fail after I finished up my exhaust install, at 87k I just bought new ones, got pretty good mileage from the stock ones.

Any thoughts on maybe the sensors getting roughed up/damaged during the exhaust removal/installation? Just notice Chris also mentioned this.

Went to headers about 5000 miles ago. Had a brief encounter with a “Too Lean” problem. That got fixed with an IM retorque. Nothing since.

definitely a concern

I’m sure the shop that installed would claim no intentional harm done and the sensor was on its way out. Seems as if o2 sensors have a finite life. I was surprised that flow could be the killer. If it’s normal for these cars than cheaper to just replace and be glad they lasted this long. Does seem that they’d last longer on a stock vehicle.

They get roughed up during install? This only happens on Audi’s apparently. It also is not tune dependent since lots of people report failures that did not get a tune at the same time. I just don’t understand why the Audi sensors fail. They are Bosch, same sensor pretty much everyone uses.

How much more air is flowing on a V8 S4 going from stock to full catless?

I’m not sure it’s just flow. There are loads of factors.

I also think this happens on every car. O2 sensors are always dying. Type in any random dead o2 code and you will get links from dozens of platforms.

Not sure why you think they don’t die on mustangs either…or why you think the mustang use the same ones.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/new-edge-cobras-51/947881-wideband-o2-sensor-fuel-pump-questions.html

Yeah I know O2 sensors die a lot on different cars. I just replaced one on my sisters Jeep.

But it is well known that exhaust modification almost always leads to sensor failure on Audi’s. I’m just trying to understand why. The rate of failure on Audi’s that have a modified exhaust is crazy.

There’s only a handful of O2 sensor manufactures in the world. Bosch makes the ones that come on an Audi and the ones that come on a Ford. So failure rates should be similar. You can use a universal sensor for the secondary sensors on an Audi, so those are clearly nothing special.

Since when is “it just happens” and “there are loads of factors” satisfactory answers on Audi Revolution? That’s Audizine level

yes, there are loads of factors

  1. they just die. Shit happens.

  2. they get physically fucked up on removal or reinstall

  3. this happens on all platforms, not just Audi. You want to believe it’s only Audi, but it’s not. See the Cobra guy whose very basic sensors were all near dead? He just ditched them before they died. I have seen on the US platforms the guys will monitor their o2 sensors when doing a revitalization or a build, and if they’re not firing properly, they will replace them. We Audi guys just run them into the ground.

  4. the ECU relies on Audi sensors far more than the ECU on many domestic platforms. They work the little bastards to death. Wideband is a whole different animal. Perhaps it IS different on the Audis.

fact is, shit happens. It’s a $100-200 pain in the ass. You just have to eat shit on these ones! It’s like tires and spark plugs and oil filters. You need new ones after a while, so there you have it.

Here’s a selection of SVT performance threads. Maybe ask them why their sensors are always dying?

Actively replacing before death
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/exhaust-215/961667-ntk-45-o2-sensors-bosch-25-sensors.html

Guy put a catback on and is throwing codes
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/990654-o2-sensor-code-thrown-bank-2-sensor-2-a.html

Faulty senor and coded out rears
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/svt-shelby-gt500-150/948815-o2-sensor-question.html

Full exhaust and SC and loads of o2 codes/problems
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/mach-1-156/887846-o2-sensor-help.html

Installed headers and killed a sensor
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/907410-bank-1-o2-sensor-failing.html

Sensors gone bad on his longtube car
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/960994-removing-oxygen-sensor-extensions-how.html

Supercharged and sensors are now dead
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/engine-tuning-214/956451-front-o2s-not-switching-static-voltage.html

Exhaust installed, failing smog due to bad o2s now
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/961325-posting-heads-up-those-facing-smog-future.html

Tuned his car and now sensor is dead
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/979599-p2626-code-evening.html

Wanted to drop an update on this. Had the B1S1 O2 sensor checked for issues and of course, it looks to be in perfect condition. The sensor was not roughed up during install when I had the down pipes put in. No real answer to why it would have failed, but the heater circuit had definitely failed on the original O2 sensor. This being an important sensor I was comfortable just replacing it. New sensor I ordered from JHM, who ensured I got the correct part #, was put in and codes were cleared. Appeared to have resolved the issue, but just in case, emissions readiness test were done. Found out that cylinder 6 and 8 had been misfiring so out come the spark plugs to have a look. They were found to be the original factory ones, so had them replaced to see if it would help. Conduct some more testing and we decided it’d be best to replace the two coil packs on cylinder 6 and 8. Of course, cylinder 8 is an inconvenient coil to replace, but not a big deal. A test drive and readiness test were done again to make sure that all cylinders were firing with no issues and the O2 sensors were working properly. Everything passed and looked healthy. Still had my concerns knowing how the ecu will wait for a few cycles and extended drives before it throws a code. Cars been through a couple hundred miles and started multiple times and no codes! Engine sounds better, even though it could be a placebo, but I swear I used to hear something around 2000 rpm that sounded off that has completely gone away. Car seems to start better, run better, and improved fuel mileage by about 10%. That’s done with math at the fuel pump since I only get about 250miles before a fill up. With all new fluids/filters in the car and knowing that everything is running smoothly I am a very happy RS4 owner. The only thing I can imagine needs doing is a carbon clean (never performed 45k on the car) and the shop has recently purchased a blaster as they’ve had so many FSI (Q7, RS4, etc) coming in. I’ve seen some before and after shots and watched them working on a Q7 4.2 and feel comfortable having them do the work (I don’t have 6-12 hours to do it myself currently). Planning on enjoying the car till 50k and getting it done then.

What I’ve learned is that exhaust installs on these cars and failed O2 sensors happens and it’s good insurance to be ready to replace them. I’m personally a don’t fix it if it’s not broke kinda guy, so will just keep an eye on the others. I suspect that sensors that are on there way out and increased exhaust flow has the potential to ‘kill’ them. The filaments could also be sensitive to un-install, but I’m not blaming that event for failure. Definitely important to keep fresh plugs on these cars and it’s good insurance to replace coil packs. Prices aren’t horrible on either and the car runs well even when they’re old.

Thanks for the input guys. Can’t wait for warmer weather and to get a full detail done. I plan on getting some more shots up at blue ridge parkway for all to enjoy.