Misfire moving around - help with proper diagnosis

This could indicate a bad MAF is nothing changes at all. Next time you start the car log the MAF value and see if its ~5 GPS. Now with the car missfireing that can cause lots of issues so its hard to tell.

I would inspect the wire harness and see if there are any issues. The wires on the passenger side under the air box tend to fray and ground out. That would be the next thing to look into.

The next two things you would want to check is to unplug the 02s and see if the car runs better with those unplugged. If that isn’t helping you would want to inspect the tone ring on the flywheel as that tells the ignition when to fire.

Ran some more logs. Car starts up idling almost normal and then after 30 seconds or so starts the rough idle and misfire again. Same behavior as when I started it up last night and ONLY cylinder 3 misfire this time. All wires look good. Barely any wires on passenger side.

Logged the following and can be found here on OneDrive
Injection Timing
Mass Air Flow - Sensor (G70)
Ignition - Timing Angle
Sensor Voltage - Bank 1 Sensor 1
Sensor Voltage - Bank 2 Sensor 1
Engine Speed - (G28)
Cam. Adjustment - Intake Bank 1
Cam. Adjustment - Intake B1 (spec.)
Cam. Adjustment - Intake B1 (act.)
Cam. Adjustment - Intake Bank 2
Cam. Adjustment - Intake B2 (spec.)
Cam. Adjustment - Intake B2 (act.)

I did unplug but then replugged the o2 sensors at the firewall. Was not sure the proper diagnosis procedure, start with them unplugged or unplug one at at time or … Trying to minimize run time because once it starts misfiring it will inevitably start to die out (RPMs keep falling until it more or less feels like it will stall out. I turn it off before this has happened)

I did not inspect the crank trigger but that sounds much better than the tone ring!

Killing me that it is just a cylinder 3 misfire code, still! One suggestion was to keep starting it up and letting it run while the idle feels/sounds good and then shut it off when it starts to get rough. Try to cycle some of the old fuel out of the lines. This sounds good as anything I suppose. Is there a way to test the alternator without load or driving? The idling voltage seemed good but I dont know why the misfire takes a little bit to happen

Front o2 sensors with additional pics here
Have had jhm piggie pipes for around 20k miles

B1S1 (passenger, front)

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B2S1 (driver, front)

https://ek6b2a.bn.files.1drv.com/y4m-3giKzikHDELp8l0dW1JPE9T-HBZyDopT8o2S1yTtzY2e5mGcO5EeHTh448_JJ2E4sxNS3f_tCW4CUEGxN9XhuWkLF_CL8UfNhqHrFUva8Hv4loZorALFa4if4qimQn9dkbRSR6a-1sEcXdrOdIHkhXr3duNqnGLaVmwpvCpJsh-j2sPnBmRosVzMUCPOLnVcp1WOG_cBY9Q_e1rDdvChg?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none

Random misfires can take place if your 02s are bad. This is more common with the RS4 for whatever reason but its common. The fact that its just icolated to cylinder 3 seems like it might be more mechanical.

The reason I said to unplug the 02 when the car is running is to see if the car will run cleaner longer with the 02 unplugged.

Havent started it up again to test unplugging the front bank 1 o2 and will do that on next startup. I confirmed the battery is healthy at the local OReillys.

Did a leak down test, for what it might be worth, though now feeling it was not helpful (yet). Misfire is too bad to get the engine warm and cylinder 3 (misfiring cylinder) had low dry compression and fine wet compression #s (95psi dry, ~155psi with a drop of oil added) and all other cylinders were within acceptable range each other, around the 150 mark

Loosened crankcase cap and coolant cap, intake piping removed down to TB.
Did a leak down test on cylinder 3 (multiple tests) and was getting a 90% loss of compression (100psi down to 10psi). I could hear air escaping out of the cylinder at a rapid rate but couldn’t identify any leaks in the engine bay: coolant tank was still, no air bubbles or hissing, no hissing from crankcase cap, no hissing or air noticed from TB, couldn’t identify any air leaks in the valve cover or injectors or anything of the sort. I did hear air coming out of the exhaust, indicating an exhaust valve issue I guess.
I wasn’t quite satisfied (still not) with the diagnosis so I tested cylinder 2 as it came up close after cylinder 3 in the firing order (…3-7-2…) and got the same diagnosis, bad exhaust valves or air only escaping or heard from the tailpipe and also reading at 10psi when it should be close to 100psi (if healthy).

I had limited time with the air compressor so will get another and do more testing.
In the meantime, does it sound like I’m messing up somewhere or should do something else when I re-check? Would like to get it figured out ahead of time. A couple of videos of the leak down test and pictures of cylinder 3 intake valves from when I was doing the oil check valves.

B7 S4 - Leak Down Test - Google Photos

With that much loss and that low on the compression it might be a dead horse. Obviously check to make sure your on the compression stroke but that seems a bit high to me. Have you had an oil sample test yet to see how much fuel is in the oil…

Yeah that was my worry, not sure that everything is lined up from the leak down testing… I dont know how it could go from driving just fine to a single cylinder misfire and complete loss of compression in bank 1, still with only 1 cylinder misfiring. I must be missing something.

I sent the oil in back in March to Blackstone, before all this happened as I had just returned from a year overseas and wanted to get some reading of the motors condition before deciding to put any more money into it. The report came back just fine: <.5% with acceptable values <2%
Report: https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ar5RwRk1fG8zjqgzW-d0O4JEDxuEFQ

I have a local shop coming by to do a house visit tomorrow to bring a scope and whatever else. I told them the rundown of what has been checked and the type of diagnosis Im looking for so maybe, just maybe, Ill get some more answers shortly. Hoping for someone like ScannerDanner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB9XCDO8oa8&index=4&list=PL1Nqs-yZYIJ75svpYUFBYMyS1MX1_Ewnm&t=868s or Shrodinger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHPYGsUOLtQ&list=PL1Nqs-yZYIJ75svpYUFBYMyS1MX1_Ewnm&index=3&t

If you havet driven the car in a long time you can get lifter bleed out and that can take about 45 min of running and driving the car to sort out. In that time you will get a good amount of misfires due to obviously the lifter being down. But and that might have been part of the bad compression test… but that’s a big maybe.

The original mechanic to come out bailed, no showed, and no communication. I called around and couldn’t find another shop to come out but landed on one that sounded like a winner, so I called a tow truck and arranged for it to be dropped off. Tuesday night, 10 hours before the tow truck was to arrive (845am) I put the spark plugs back in after the leak down test, re-attached the intake and whatnot, and then had the car towed to a local shop to diagnose the cylinder 3 misfire. They called on Friday to say that the spark plug is smashed and there is a hole in the piston. It was NOT in this condition when I dropped off the car so now I’m stuck trying to figure out what to do. They are claiming no liability, suggesting that a valve seat fell into the cylinder. I saw the valves when the IM was off earlier and all valves looked fine, though granted I didn’t inspect (can I even see them?) the valve seats. When I started it up after re-installing the IM it idled more or less fine for about 90 seconds before the cylinder 3 misfire started up again, single code. A couple of restarts to check other small fixes and it did the same each time, more or less fine idle for a small bit then the single cylinder misfire would happen. It was a fine, albeit rough (misfiring) running motor when I dropped it off, and now it has a hole in the piston and “smashed” spark plug.

I called another local shop who has done a bunch of work on the car previously and they say the valve seat falling into the cylinder is incredibly unlikely, having to get past the valves before being able to drop into the cylinder. I don’t know enough about this but looking for input.

There are a lot of inconsistencies and issues with their story so far. Such as it sounds they immediately went to trying to drive the car instead of looking at ANYTHING. The car was dropped off without a front bumper, core support minimally installed so it could be winched onto the tow truck. Vice grips clamping a hose closed, wires disconnected and dangling.

Looking for advice before I go back and talk to them further. Currently planning on further explanation, clarity of what their ACTUAL play by play is. I also want to get an actual diagnosis of what was causing the cylinder 3 misfire. They said they think it could be the valve seat that was causing the misfire and then dropped when they took possession and caused the hole in the piston. But they didn’t make it sound like that was their official diagnosis, which is what I paid for, what I contracted them to tell me. So I want them to give me their actual diagnosis of cylinder 3 - do I have a case here for them to do a tear down to find the root cause? Would I trust them? The same shop I’ve used before for work on the car suggested I tow the car home and have a 3rd party mechanic come take a look and do the further diagnosis on what caused the hole in the piston.

Legal action is very unlikely due to the $$ amount. I’ve called insurance to see if they can help at all but not yet heard back.

Here’s a link to photo of the spark plug and a video of their explanation of the ordeal. (I did get their permission to record the convo)

Well that sucks.

Some of what he said is possible but not the valve seat falling in with out the valve falling in as well.

You want to see if the valve fell into the cylinder. That would be what you want to see. There is a chance that the valve seat was going bad and not letting the valve close all the way. That would be part of the leak down issue.

IMHO I didn’t watch past the 5min mark of the video because I kinda agree with the mechanic. Something was wrong and for them to find out what they would have to do certain things to inspect the car and while in the middle of doing all of that whatever was about to go very wrong went wrong.

I’m just stumped because the last time I started it up (after putting IM back, new ignition coils, calibrated injectors, etc) it ran pretty good for the first minute before the misfire kicked in. Here is the link to the video.

After this I only pulled the spark plugs to do the leak down test. I find it nearly impossible to believe that whatever was going on with cylinder 3 to cause the misfire decided that once it got to the shop was a good time to catastrophically fail. The chances of that are theoretically the same as what it would take to start a new planet. It kills me that they took the car and immediately started to drive it instead of checking ANYTHING. It came in with wires dangling, no front bumper, and vice grips on a hose. What about any of that indicates it is something you can just get in and drive without any prior checks? And the timing of the calls… First to ask about the spark plug being cross threaded, then 11min later to say the spark plug was “smashed” and a hole in the piston. It doesn’t add up.

1:20 - primed, resting PSI up to 30
1:40 - continue priming fuel pump, resting PSI rises to about 60psi then drops to a resting point of 55psi which I believe is what it should be
3:05 - put garage door up before starting the car, clicking noises following are me logging into VCDS and setting up some measuring blocks. PSI is staying relatively steady. Drops to ~50PSI before starting
7:52 - start motor for first time since having removed and split IM, replaced oil check valves, cleaned/calibrated injectors, new ignition coils, etc. Started up RIGHT away and idled as expected (a bit rough) for everything that was removed and worked on. Fuel pressure was steady at 60psi while running
8:49 - misfire begins on cylinder 3, starts running very rough just like before all of this. Put me back to square one as I thought I was doing okay with the first ~1min or so of it running.
9:48 - turned it off

From that aspect I agree it shouldn’t have been started.

While I can’t say for sure what happened I would point out that all of the issues seem to have pointed to cylinder 3 before and now that there is catastrophic damage its on cylinder 3. If you had issues on say a cylinder that had no issues before this. I would lean more in the direction of possible issues from the shop but something serious was going on with cylinder 3

You would have to tear down the motor to really get a good idea on what happened and what went wrong.

You might have had a bent rod that could cause issues and remember on cold starts misfire reconition isn’t on right away. After the car turns on and comes into closed loop that will read off all of the sensors and start showing signs

Quick update for anyone that might be interested…

Got a replacement engine from wrecking yard, had a forum member take a look at it prepurchase (thank you Vinny!) and have been slowly tearing into it, prepping for a new life in the Avant.

On the old engine: I stripped the upper oil pan locking bolt (t45) when trying to remove it so I could insert the crank lock pin/bolt and take the chains and heads off. Also broke off a bolt extractor trying to get it out. Waiting to get a nut welded onto the face of the bolt head and then I’ll finally get to see what really happened in there. So far I’ve shaken what looks to be valve keepers from the intake manifold.

WOW well great work. It sucks that all this keeps coming up but now that you have two motors you should be able to really get everything you need to get the car running strong again.

What a disaster! good luck on the rebuild

Thanks! Getting there… just had a machinist re-cut a 30* face into the exhaust valve seats to recenter the valve on the seat. Looks like it had been wallowing out the seat and was only going to get worse. Valve guides are measuring at 0.6mm when limit is 0.8mm so it’s close…

When I took the heads off this is what the pistons/bores looked like (some carbon chunks, oil) from sitting for 18mo or more. I hope no carbon really got stuck between the top piston rings when rotating the crank to TDC before taking the heads off.

What do you guys suggest for cleaning the gunk out of the bores without getting carbon damage at the piston ring? I was thinking an overnight soak in two pistons that are higher up on the stroke so that when rotating down the carbon is soft and wont do damage. Not sure what’s best. I’m a newb and this is all new to me

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OMFG those 4 cylinders look terrible.

A good soak at TDC position would be best. If you have the oil pan off I don’t think it would be as big of a deal.

Haha yeah, don’t look great but they do look worse than they actually are! Wipes off easy enough and I’m honestly not worried about getting the pistons looking nice.

I just want to make sure I’m doing the best thing when rotating to TDC the pistons that are already at the bottom, or lower down on their stroke. I want to make sure that I don’t do any damage if any carbon chunks already got stuck between the top ring and the bores when initially rotating to TDC for removing the heads, etc, because yea, as you noted, this looks pretty nasty and it was all in there when I was initially rotating that little bit. Maybe I’m paranoid?

Google photo links
Initial Piston/Bore Inspection
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hbSFgd7bFwHHgvXB6

Closer Piston/Bore Inspection - Minor, careful cleaning
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ppRvZAh7izatYeVD8

WTF the one side 5-8 looked terrible.

spray penetration lube on the topside of the walls and the bottom side under the piston then free spin the motor to make sure there is no carbon bits in there use an air hose to blow between the pistion and the walls.