My car was carbon cleaned. Before/After testing inside...

So…I had a problem with a knock sensor on my RS4 that required removal of the manifold for Audi to replace it (warranty). I took the opportunity to have them clean the carbon since half the labour was done. After being quoted $1000 to have the carbon clean done at 3 different places including the dealer, I figured if I could get it done for about half that, great. Sure enough…$450 was my part, so I said ‘go ahead’.

They kept the car overnight and also did the oil and spark plugs as well as the rest of the 85,000 KM service (I have Audicare :slight_smile: ).

Before I handed the car to them I did a 3k-8k test, as well as logs and pbox testing. I will focus here today on the 3k-8k testing and then we can look at the other tests once I do the ‘after’ on those. From a butt dyno perspective…I noticed almost nothing. I was a bit surprised because lots of people rave about the massive difference…the 5500 RPM kick…etc. It should be noted that the 5500 RPM kick is largely the torque limiter putting a throtttle restriction on the car up to…you guessed it, 5500 RPM. In the hot summer conditions however that kick is much less noticeable because the torque limiter on a stock car is not likely to be met due to shit DA. So your throttle is pretty much wide open from idle to redline if you slam the pedal. This is one of those simple details that people don’t know about this car, but then leads them to make sweeping statements about ‘I’ve lost the kick, I must have carbon!’. No, it’s just summer. Have a pina colada and relax.

Here’s the 3k-8k before/after comparison:

BEFORE
Temperature : 80.6 fahrenheit / 27 Celsius. (the car thermometer said 28.0 C)
Elevation: 370 feet
Barometric Pressure: 30.04 inches hg
Relative Humidity: 70%
Density Altitude: 2345 feet
Oil Temperature: 107 Celsius / 225 fahrenheit

3k-8k 9.0
3k-8k 9.2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxlrEoOXjmQ

AFTER
Temperature : 75.2 fahrenheit / 24 Celsius. (the car thermometer said 22.5 C)
Elevation: 370 feet
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 inches hg
Relative Humidity: 74%
Density Altitude: 1801 feet
Oil Temperature: 93 Celsius / 199 fahrenheit

3k-8k 8.4 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8BDSMG7JMY

So there is definitely a performance difference from yesterday to today, however we have to keep in mind:

  1. 500 feet of density altitude is pretty significant
  2. cooler car overall…yesterday oil was 107 and today it was 93. Heat soak yesterday would have been worse as the car had been driving for about 15 minutes before testing, whereas today it was more like 5-6 minutes

Still, the gap is about 0.7 seconds. Doing the 3k-8k in 8.4 seconds is quite good in cold temps…let alone 24 celsius and high humidity.

I will look for another day with temps where they were yesterday (27 or so, and 2300 feet od DA) and retest. I will make sure the car is a bit hotter too to take that variable away. I will also do a bit more testing including 60-130 (this will really show the difference as it is my belief that high RPMs is where carbon really costs you a noticeable amount of performance, and in a long sustained pull at high RPMs, that should show up pretty significantly.

If I were a betting man, I don’t think I would be much quicker at the quarter mile. Probably same as I ran last year when I was stock. I don’t know that I will bother to go to the strip to test it (we already did that with Mistro’s car and it was a nominal difference)…but I will do some pbox 1/4 mile stuff and compare to old pbox 1/4 mile results I have on file.

good work documenting/testing any differences. was the dtc for the knock sensor active on the before tests?

they cleared it than gave the car back to me for the week because I needed a loaner and it wouldn’t be ready for a few days.

I had the code before and cleared it, and then it came back 2 months later.

Please convert all of your units…

Quarter mile will be the real test. You know the car well enough and have been to the strip enough times that all you should have to do is get weather conditions close to the same. I bet it’s less than a 1/10th second delta.

Great test. If we assume that you’d run a 1/4 mile similar to your 12.75, then 50,000 miles of carbon build-up (or, more accurately, your mileage on the date you ran that time) is not the performance killer that nearly everyone seems to believe (at least not in terms of magnitude). I still think you should go in the fall when conditions are more favorable - that would be a pretty cool comparison.

LOL @ pina colada/relax :smiley:

When I went 12.75 @ 108 I had 38,000 miles I think. That was last April.

When I went 12.82 @ 109.9 I had 42,000 miles or so. That was last November.

Today I have bang on 50,000 miles. Zero carbon.

Just drove it at lunch. It does feel like it rips through the gears better, and the test above in the videos shows that for sure. I just wonder how big a deal it would be in a rip through 1-2-3-4 from a dead stop to approximately 110 MPH. I’m thinking not much. Maybe I will run 12.75 @ 110 or something.

A friend has a B8 S4 and whenever we have raced it has been nearly dead on a heat. I will have to do some rips with him to see what happens. He’s a good driver and has a manual car.

Good stuff, I did similar test pre & post CC and had very similar results.

Where I noticed the largest delta post CC was 5K+ RPM in 4th. I have raced an RS4 in my area a bunch of times and we were pretty even. WHen I had my last CC done we did a few pulls and 1-3 there may have been an increase in my speed over previous times but we were shocked when we hit around 110-115mph. I started pulling away from him in a very noticeable fashion. We ran a few times that night and the same results each time. 115mph+ and it was game over.

Overall I have had a very similar experience to what you described above.

Yes, extended work done at high RPMs is where I’ve always assumed carbon hurts the most. Before that it’s a delta, but not a huge one…and usually in gears 1-2-3 you’re through the gears quickly enough that it’s not noticeable. Doing a ‘slow’ pull through fourth to 128 mph should reveal the power gained back by the carbon clean.

I think my testing has me convinced that the bottom line is as clochner put it…carbon is not good, but it’s not the end of the world. These people who claim it’s robbing you of 50 hp after 10,000 miles are crazy. It’s maybe 15-20 hp…and you’ll really only notice it way up top.

I don’t think I am going to wait to hit the strip in the RS4 in stock form though in the fall. I am going to throw my JHM exhaust on soon, so that’ll be the end of my stock RS4 1/4 mile data gathering.

What a great thread. I think Carbon has been a tough road for many, because Carbon is an issue its just trying to define what is too much and what isn’t. To find the answers the question has to be what stage of Carbon are you in?

Here is some data from a

Stock B8-S5 80k

Here’s the 2k-7k before/after comparison:

BEFORE
Temperature : 78. fahrenheit
Elevation: 500 feet
Barometric Pressure: na
Relative Humidity: 58%
Density Altitude: na
Oil Temperature: na but running temps

2-7k average 4 runs = 10.88

AFTER

Temperature : 84. fahrenheit
Elevation: 500 feet
Barometric Pressure: na
Relative Humidity: 81%
Density Altitude: na
Oil Temperature: na but up to running temp

2k-7k average 4 runs= 10.22 seconds

AFTER / With intake spacers.

Temperature : 94. fahrenheit
Elevation: 500 feet
Barometric Pressure: na
Relative Humidity: 77%
Density Altitude: na
Oil Temperature: na but up to running temp

2k-7k average 4 runs= 9.75

All the same day testing. The day got progressively hotter so this had a potential impact on the bigger impact both the mods made. The note to take from this is that the intake spacers were tested in the hottest part of the day and when you look at the logs the numbers don’t move very much from run to run. The intake spacers don’t just help give the car a down low grunt it helps keep the average acceleration the same over 5,6,8+ runs.

Most of the NA cars will fall off power wise after say the second or third pass. With the intake spacers this is reduced or eliminated almost all together.

Yeah I wish I had put intake spacers in, but I realised I would have a chance soon enough.

The story we always tell is that after driving 45 minutes to the dragstrip with mistrial we arrived and popped our hoods. Mine was as hot as a pistol. His was barely luke warm. He had jhm intake spacers.

(He had also driven an extra 40 mi uses effort meeting up with me)

Got some of the before pictures from the dealer. First off…we need to hire a photographer over there!

Second off, carbon looks normal. Not light, not terrible. Just normal carbon.

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/DSC02180_zpsf7296de8.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/DSC02181_zps3980d73f.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/DSC02179_zps12cb386e.jpg

Great thread.

LOL

I’ve never seen it like that on the valve stems. The walls of the runner/head seem clean though.

its so bad you can’t see it!

lol terrible pics. I will try to brighten the other two in a photo editor

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/DSC02180_zpsc0b33272.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/DSC02181_zps440008cc.jpg