If you can dial up the rebound bias on the rear shocks, that will help the rears with doing some more braking. The RS5 rear rotor conversion is both lighter and dissipates heat better. But there’s no substitute for giant discs up front. I’m still going back on forth on whether I should pull the trigger on the CCM-R ceramic rotors up front. I’d probably decide in May 2016 when my Brembo discs are on their last legs from 7 more track days.
Well that’s a good question… I just looked at several single pulley and several dual pulley logs, in similar DA conditions… Below is what my car sees in DA’s between say 100-500…
APR pulley
max boost - 16.3 psi at about 7100RPM in 4th…
avg for 4th gear - 15.6 psi
APR pulley/JHM oversized crank pulley
max boost - 18.1 psi at about 7050RPM in 4th…
avg for 4th gear - 17.4 psi
I only have a few sets of logs with the dual pulley setup and no bypass so I used those, ambient was in the 970hPa range… Always keep conditions in mind as they’ll effect “boost” readings… Two pulley’s is a pretty big difference obviously and it’s very noticeable in the cars performance, in cold air like today that 18.1# is closer to 19 ;D Stop light launches with summer tires are well… fun! lol
FWIW a response from someone on AZ.
The thing I feared most about this tune: “Big difference in throttle response, almost too responsive, just a bit more torque until you pass 5k, then it hauls serious ass compared to stock, so if you want more accessible power up top, then go for it. Totally worth it. As addictive as it is, I don’t think stage two would keep me out of jail.”
No thanks. It’s like those “Sport +” throttle settings on the E92 M3 and the like. Over boosts throttle sensitivity to the point that you actually reduce pedal resolution. Circuit driving is all about weight transfer…so being able to control that effectively is key. Having a longer pedal is better than having a short one in this case.
Boro92 any reason why not APR they have argueably the best tune. GIAC seems to be really good. I would be careful on the reviews you read on AZ. Here guys are a lot more technical.
From what you see here APR is the best choice. You dont see a lot from REVO. They do have a history of issues. There was the old tune and then they have the new tune. Just wondering why APR isnt on the list for you.
Good question.
APR was on the list - it was actually my #1 choice due to enabling left foot braking.
However, in speaking with some folks (drob23 actually heh!), it was mentioned that APR picked up a new tuner from the mitsubishi evo world, and some of the safety aspects APR built into the tune and was known for was being overhauled.
I think you’re reaching a little far for reasons to justify not buying the 2 most established tuning solutions for the platform. Just an opinion.
But how anyone with a B8 S4 walks past the APR shelf…walks past the GIAC shelf…and buys from the Unitronic and REVO shelves…that’s mind boggling.
Those two companies have completely licked the market with pretty straightforward solutions that have been thoroughly tested to hell and back (ECU tuning…the TCU on the APR side is still a work in progress obviously).
I mean if you want to be a bit of a contrarian and do something different, contact Count Vohn and get in on the development of the tune he’s writing. Anything but what you’re doing. Doesn’t make sense boro.
It’s because he’s doing something different. GIAC will get you a fast 1/4 mile. These Audi forums seem to only care about that. Dealers that sponsor road course clubs have great success with REVO/Stasis. APR also but that company seems to have more drama around it than is necessary, and port flashing doesn’t always work.
There is no reason he shouldn’t go REVO stage 1. Most tuned B8’s have this because 200 Audi dealers installed it on customer cars for 4 years as a Stasis tune.
My Stage II+ B8 S4 was great around the race track.
The thing is, it’s a fallacy to think that just because the tunes excel at 1/4 mile, it’s somehow sub par on the road course (if anything, the acceleration part is very much something that is related). The same is the other way around. I never really got that argument. It is after all, acceleration right? A tune doesn’t increase surface adhesion or affect slip angles nor does it affect braking. 
(only thing it could possibly affect is popping the engine with altered safety parameters lol)
Dealers were caught when Audi of America basically said that they won’t warranty Stasis parts/tune. I think there were examples of Stasis trying to weasel out of warranty claims too (made sense since they had a ‘going concern’ issue financially). Dealers were caught again when Stasis imploded (as with anyone with their Alcon kits or Ohlins kits who needed after sales support - I don’t think the picture is still completely clear for those needing replacement Alcon rings).
Also, I don’t know if Revo/Stasis really does have the highest number of tuned B8 S4s. If Stasis, which one? StAPRsis? Revo neutered flavor (i think it had the engine protections unaltered - or does it)? Forum representation shows that it’s not a very big percentage. I don’t know of many local Revo tuned S4s. I know a few Stasis equipped owners (but some who have jumped ship due to lack of stage II at the time).
True, boro has no reason to not go REVO. But there’s plenty of reasons to go APR or GIAC. Might as well get Stage II too - not that much incrementally from an expenditure point of view), proven performance, and great support (forum presence, they’re actively working to improve, developing new parts, invested into the platform etc). So much be–it that I tend to chalk it up to ‘which local dealer is better’ as the ‘tie breaker’. And this is what some of us are perplexed about.
OK thanks for the input everyone.
Sooo let me get this straight: I’m crazy because I’m knowingly choosing a tune that is slower, is that it?
All I’m looking to do is unlock some of the kept potential that Audi has done with the boost bleed. I’m not after stage 2 speeds – nor is my car ready for it, as the brakes are an issue…as is the weight…as are my chosen tire size for track use…and perhaps as is my suspension–slippery slope!.
I’m after one primary thing: retain stock drivability. Read: long pedal. I don’t want enhanced throttle response, I do not want a more boosted throttle position mapping. I need and want that long pedal to control weight transfer of a 4000lb pig that now tends to oversteer off throttle AND manage the sport diff which still gives rotation when on the throttle.
From what I can tell now, only APR and Revo will retain the stock pedal. So those are my 2 choices. Revo happens to be sold by a solid dealer which happens to host the track days I go to. They know me, and they will take care of me. APR is sold by some independent garage which repairs radiators.
I’m not trying to turn this into a race car–it’s a practical DD which has good potential for time attacks and road course duty. Putting a stage 2 on this bumps me into a racing category which severely outclasses my car (Z06s, Gt3s, those things). 25% off Revo and if I don’t like it, I can always go APR.
None of these are justifications for my planned purchase. I’m just letting you in on my thought process and trust me, I am indeed reading each and everyone of your responses 'cause I value them. You guys know this stuff in and out. If Revo is unreliable, or truly bad in anyway, let me know and I’ll stay away. From what little I know, West runs it and his car is fine, Skywagon had some 1/4 mile issues, but his logs looked pretty good. I’m fine with all of that. And by the way, all the records are on the APR/GIAC stage 2. I’m only doing a stage 1 tune (if that matters). Is APR/GIAC still so much further off? From all the 1/4 numbers I’m finding on stage 1, Revo/GIAC/APR are all similar. The only one off the mark is Unitronic.
Your right about the thoughts on the APR tuner. He was an evo tuner and he started out rocky with crazy statments on here and then as reported by several guys blown motors in the RS4 the golf and big issues with the TTRS. So much so that it led 034 to dump APR tuning all together.
Since then I was told that APR has brought in more qualified tuners to help with tuning. Not sure what this means I think the evo guy is still there and at this point with more support It seems like maybe his cowboy days are past. APR had a real strong B8 program before the new tune staff came in. Even with all the past issues that people have had with the new apr tuning staff that has been long over and at this point its been several years. I would say APR is a good safe bet. Just dont get the trans tune as that seems to still need some work.
The big reason behind the guys saying stay away from REVO is due to there past and there past issues. Its not that its slowest but its been known to be too overly agressive and that has lead to some serious issues. REVO isnt a real force in the B8 S4 market and given there last shot and miss I dont think too many guys would indorce them.
I don’t see the enhanced throttle response as a bad thing. Your really going through corners fast enough that you will transfer that much weight and cause a slide? I personally think that you are over thinking it.
Thanks Jimmy and Justin.
Jimmy - depending on how touchy the throttle is, it very well can throw the balance off.
If you read reviews of the M3 by pro drivers, you’ll find that the sport driving mode for throttle response (read: not sport+ or whatever) is preferred for track work. If GIAC is as out of whack as the guy on AZ says it is, that’s not something I want to pay money for. Though anyone here with experience on the tune, I’m all ears.
Another thing I dug up on GIAC stage 1…it’s putting down similar 1/4 numbers to stock. Check this out:
"Toronto Motorsports Park
Density Altitude at 11am = -488 feet
Density Altitude at 4pm = +281 feet
Basically perfect conditions. All the Audis had great traction and ran decent times.
12.13 @ 114 ilspazzaneve/jspazz B8 S4 DSG APR V2 100 tune, pulley
12.2 @ 113 81bear, B8 S4 DSG APR 93? tune, pulley, HFC, Milltek Catback, LW Wheels
12.35 @ 113.8 turbobaby, B8 S4 DSG Revo 93 tune only
12.75 @ 108.3 sakimano, bone stock B7 RS4
12.88 @ 109 seinsmeld13, B8 S4 DSG GIAC 91 tune
13.19 @ 104 boravr6 B7 S4 MT6 JHM 93 tune, 2.5" fullback
13.42 @ 103.9 bangoman B6 S4 Avant MT6, JHM 93 tune, Magnaflow catback, JHM LWFW"
But more importantly, the GIAC DSG car did a 12.88. Sakimano killed it with a 12.75. I know Sakimano goes to the strip all the time and can do a proper run, but how is it that he is killing a tuned DSG s4 in a stock manual car? They are trapping nearly the same. That suggests to me the GIAC stage 1 tune is pretty weak, no?
This is still a ridiculous statement because Audi dealers installed the Revo stage 1 tune on a ton of cars under a stasis label. No blown motors, no reported issues. You know if someone had a big problem they’d find their way over to a forum while the dealer was working it out.
I’ve literally been at 034 when they were APR port flashing a B8 and it dyno’d the same before and after. This is the biggest problem with APR is the deployment fails maybe 30% of the time. Some customers probably don’t even know their car isn’t tuned. With Revo they remove the ECU from the car and install it with a 100% success rate.
Exactly. Heaven forbid your car should accelerate well at the road course lol. The road course is a series of short and long drag races stitched together by corners. Why anyone would be foolish enough to say that one tune is a dragstrip tune and one is a road course tune is beyond me.
This whole ‘drivability’ discussion is a joke too. When I asked Keith about throttle mapping on the APR B8 S4 tune when it came out he said they planned to leave it alone because stock throttle mapping is great. So boro wants ‘stock drivability’ and a tune that makes him accelerate better, and he ignores APR? lol
I agree that a tune is just as relevant on the 1/4 as it is the road course.
No debate there in my books.
We can agree to disagree on drivability. I hear Scott on the APR tune being fine on the road course. I would expect it to be with stock throttle mapping. But messing with the throttle mapping in a big way (as Unitronic did), there is absolutely an affect on drivability. Unitronic for example, would have a linear pedal up to 30% travel. Beyond 30%, it’s instant wide open throttle. In that scenario, anyone who is unfazed by that big of a jump in undesired throttle application probably isn’t going fast enough for the change in balance to make a difference.
That GIAC car was on 91 octane so keep that in mind. Also while that certainly ruined seinsmeld’s day (he was trash talking the RS4 for weeks before that lol) I didn’t exactly kill him. I beat him by 18 feet after 1/4 of a mile lol.
The revo car run by ‘turbobaby’ who was there that day was the old REVO on the crazy race like parameters on a pump tune that they used to run with protections turned off. His words that day ‘I’m going to stop now because I think this thing will kill my car sooner or later’.
I said back then that if I had a B8 S4 I wouldn’t bother tuning it and running 91 octane. The testing that day bore that out. In fact, check out the fastest 91 octane B8 S4…
infinkc B8 S4 3.0T Manual 91 APR S2 stock/APR TVSr1320 12.67 @ 108.57 1.85 Apr intake
Seinsmeld is second fastest! So it’s not just the GIAC cars that suffer. The fastest stock B8 S4 ran the same time as the fastest 91 tuned S4 lol.
If you’re getting REVO to run a 91 tune, just save your money. If you’re running 93 or PetroCan94, get a tune and a pullley and enjoy the 1320.
So far your reasons are
- unitronic - throttle sucked
- GIAC - throttle hyper
- APR - cowboy tuner (legit concern but we’re not seeing that on the 3.0T program)
- REVO - everything is great (this is funny)
Reality? REVO tuned cars today don’t unlock that potential that you seek. If you want to quote 1/4 mile times, quote your boy westwest. He ran Revo 100 and ran 13.xx. So by your rationale you used above re seinsmeld, there’s no way you should be buying REVO. Add to that the fact the company was started by thieves, and they’re the only tuners to fuck up motors with their tuning on the 3.0T so far, I can’t see why anyone would consider them. Hell, go read the skywagon turmoil with the revo tune.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
Thanks Saki for the feedback.
That break down helps me a lot.
No, I wouldn’t consider Revo at all if I went stage 2–I’ve read enough threads on the latest stage 2 1/4 #'s to know better :D. And BTW, you may not have “killed” that giac stage 1 car, but the fact that you row your own gears and drive a stock RS4 and still beat him…that’s quite the feat. That also is sad for the GIAC car lol.
Those 91 tunes are all so bad like you said, I should just save my money and not bother with it.
As for a 93 tune, that’s interesting and I’ll look int ot. FWIW the unitronic 93 tune did 12.7 @108. So basically same as a 91 tune from the “big 3”. If I went stage 2 (and it sounds like I probably should), I would need to deal with my brakes. No way in hell are these 355’s going to work with a stage 2 with how I’m throwing the car around.
BTW are all the stage 2 tunes intended for 93? I am not adverse to 93, but having the option to run 91 is especially handy when driving long distance.
Not trying to be a complete dick here, but that rationale is foolish. Put those saving on a piece of paper and you’re just being petty over nothing.
Let’s say you run 91oct over 93oct for a full year.
12,000 miles
You avg 20mpg
The average difference between 91 and 93 is usually about 20 cents
In one year of driving you saved $120
In a 600mile road trip you saved $6…do you really notice that savings? If so then it’s weird that you drive a B8 S4 and want to modify it for track days. Hell how much money do you devote to that hobby on a yearly basis?
I think he meant driving long distance as in availability more than fuel savings.
Ur math is completely right, but sometimes driving long distance and having to fill up somewhere where Sunoco or bp is nowhere to be found for me I like the option to switch to a 91 tune and have piece of mind regarding timing and what not from a not so reliable gas. Idk… My 2c
They all have 91 and 93 (as well as 100 or 100+) options so you’re not restricted to 93 by any means. Petro 94 does very well and is available almost everywhere, and the 93 option is popping up at some Esso stations too lately.
Personally I find the B8 throttle a little muted. This is understandable considering the target market generally just likes to take it easy and doesn’t need a car that flies off the mark. I think there’s something to be said for an even more linear old school drive by cable feel.