As my interest continues to grow for the 5.2 V10 I think either just removal of the cats or trying to convince JHM to build the headers would be a great. From what I understand JHM has a catless tune if anyone falls into the need for that. That is a good to know
yeah, I am just happy to find this information out and have a formula for if someone wants to really make some serious power!
Well thanks to both you and jimmy I think we are learning a lot. But from all I have found and from what we are seeing here Im now more convinced we dont want to do the R8 heads here is why.
From all the data so far we have seen
that the intake and exhaust valves are the same size. so no gain there.
From what I can tell the iintake manifold gaskets are the same port size so again no gain there.
The same I can tell from the exhaust manifold gaskets. There is no port size gain there.
There is a chance that possibly some port work has been done but from the size of the pistons the chamber size would have to be the same so again no gain there.
Over all R8 heads dont appear to have any advantage that would make them worth putting on. Now you could argue that maybe there is some port work but you could just buy some old S6 or S8 heads and get them ported. Even if the R8 heads had bigger intake or exhaust ports. Porting the stock heads would give IMHO better results.
Now moving on to the camshafts. If we were to install just the camshafts our cars would loose hp and Tq. Again we cant spin our motors to 8600rpm and that loss of 2000rpm would harm the performance big time.
Also on the camshafts remember one we cant spin our motors that high due to the kind of transmission we have. With the JHM TCU tune they could in theory make our transmissions shift at whatever rpm we asked them to but our transmissions dont do well at those kinds of speeds. Maybe 7500 would be ok but still there is one big factor left.
Our cars weight is almost 700lbs more than a standard R8 we need that low end TQ to get our big heavy cars moving so putting in R8 camshafts would rob us of that much needed low end TQ.
The same argument would be made for the single stage intake on the R8 we would loose all of our much needed low end Tq.
Everything on the R8 is geared to making and maintaining a good VE at over 6000rpm. We would need to look at the shorter runner headers as well.
Given the weight of the much heavier S6 I would say a killer formula would be.
Remove the cats or get JHM headers.
Take your OEM HEADS and get them ported.
Obviously add the JHM lw crank pulley to help with the rotational resistance concerns add the intake spacers to keep everything cool and from there building the other parts of the motor as needed.
Knowing about the piston and rods is a huge gain for possibiltys there and the crank shaft while it looks like it might not be a direct fit its good to know there are options.
I agree. If someone want to take this platform to the max meaning 1000+ hp it is possible but will require a serious investment probably $25-40k depending on how good a deal you get on parts. Its nice to know there is an end game that you can achieve If you were to put in the work. Your formula is a lot more realistic and budgetable. Tho popping the hood and seeing a Lambo or R8 intake and heads would be really fun it would all be just for asthetics.
I do have another Wacky Idea ;D :o but you will just have to wait till I get a little further along with its Development.
Good point on the trans Justin, I was about to chime in on that. I would say 7500 is probably pushing it. Probably bump to 7200 decently safely maybe s little more.
Same point on the TQ, the power curve and higher low end tq at lower rpm was done by design for the heavy s6 and more daily driving. This is one big reason I like the s6/s8 v10 over the e60 M5, there is actually usable power below 4K. Now once you got moving that high Reving v10 with the 7 speed SMG was really moving especially on a roll, but man day to day and under 4500 it was a dog compared to the tqy s6.
I would be curious to see what gains would be with a decatted s6 vs. custom headers. I remember awhile back saying the stock header design itself wasn’t horrendous, but the cats and the cat placement was terrible. Basically the engineers had there way with a working design, then the emissions people came in and rained on their parade.
I like where your head is at OP, but like Justin mentioned I would go with the proven recipe, and then start thinking about a S/C before diving into a rebuild or tear down unless your motor is already unhealthy, or your up for an adventure. Then when the opportunity presents build a 900-1000 s6 :-p, I would be interested to here if any trans work might be needed at that level though.
To that end I mentioned before the RS6 trans was built a bit beefier but the shift points would be all wrong. I looked into it Rs6 has an even lower rpm power curve than we do. and the new 4.0tt trans is even lower. Long tube headders would help bring that down a bit. Long tube headers help with power down lower shorty style help move power bands towards higher rpm. We wold need shorter gearing in our trans to get to high rpm power faster. I know we are in a transmission pool with Bently Jaguar and a few other companies I wonder if any of them are geared more like that. Well back to the Books. lol
Yeah, Funny thing our cars actually have the highest rpm power bands in the transmission pool. Which among other cars Include Bently rolls royce BMW jaguar Mazrati and Kia. So yeah them. Ok but i did find a high out put version The ZF 6HP32 is a variation of the 6HP26 for high-output applications. The gearbox’s maximum input torque is 750 N·m (550 lb·ft).[11] so when you ar ready for a beefier version of our trans you got one. I saw several on german ebay for 1300-1500 Euro
Nice find on the possible trans upgrade, what makes and models specially uses that tougher trans, and is it the same TQ converter as ours? . Yeah the c6 Rs6 transmission is only slightly beefier from what i recall, possible slightly stronger gears, don’t remember the specifics, but I think that trans holds a decent amount of power since guys have been running around with tuned and full tbe on those cars for awhile.
and knockon wood I think the stock c6 s6 trans can handle a decent amount of power and abuse itself as it’s fundamentally similar if you actually pay attention to the atf fluid and atf filler and add the JHM tcu will probably help too.
That said I’ve heard people who have replaced the trans with Lower miles and they baby it and then those that have beat it up and it shifts like new.
The only Production model I saw it was standard on was a BMW 7 series diesel apparently is only Rwd. but the one from the Q7 is awd and mated up to a v12 tdi originally. But there is supposed to be an even Beefier ZF 8HP being built for Audi that will be awd
The mad scientist has been quiet, find any other interesting nuggets, or gotten any closer to doing a tear down or adding any more JHM goodies or others to your vehicle?
About S6 V10 TQ, Audi doesn’t supply second version, which is upgraded and stronger than OEM. when I was replacing my TQ, my mechanic ordered it straight from ZF factory, around 2200$
Send from my 3310 using Tapatalk
You talking Tq converter? What’s stronger about it and what car is it used in?
Did you car need it or just putting building blocks in place for big power later?
What’s part number for the above vs oem?
Also, on your comment above did you see the stock c6 s6 trans by ZF trans part number is max rated at 550 whp or at the crank? Irregardless of car make and model?
Yes, about torque converter. My one was starting make noise on low revs, and when mechanic ordered new one they offered new upgradet version what is replacement for oem. With better parts inside and for handle more stress on it, and they not suply Audi service’s with that model. That was answer what my mechanic get.
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/58dbcd76cbd62/received_10205318198288856.mp4
Send from my 3310 using Tapatalk
On my s6 v10
Send from my 3310 using Tapatalk
Nice video, cool!
Lol I found a Block on carparts for $900 what thinking about starting there Darton makes sleeves for the Lambo 5.2 that would work. But… Dun Dun duun I am looking at 04-08 Lambo exhaust again I know it doesn’t quite fit… But I am thinking about making an adapter one side with our manifold flange, the other side with the Lambo flange. Bolt it onto our block then the other side bolt to the Lambo Manifold. Run a custom down pipe from there, to whatever exhaust you would like. I have the manifold gasket for both our exhaust, and lambo to use as a template. Concerns are fitment… There does not seem too be much room. If someone were to make headers then it really wouldn’t be something I’d consider but… I can Get a set of those Lambo manifolds for about 600, Used. I’d say cost at most for the machining, probably about 200-300. Unless , I do it myself of course. Which might actually be fun little project. Then another couple hundred for a custom down pipe/flexpipe
I know this is an old topic but i thought i would add to it.
It looks like the 04-08 Gallardo crank is the same as the S6-S8 crank. Same forged split pin design, same dimensions, same stroke and so on.
This is the more desirable crank than the R8 or even LP Gallardo crank. Yes theoretically a shared pin crank is stronger but the forged split pin is capable of more than 99% of what people can throw at it.
PLUS… the big plus is the sound that the split pin 72 degree firing gives you VS the R8/LP shared pin crank. Only the S6/S8 and early Gallardo are theoretically capable of making that screaming high rpm sound.
Sleeving the block is 100% overkill and not needed. Unless going forced induction or some other wiz bang BS.
Lose the balance shaft. Gain HP and RPM upper limit. The S6/S8 V10 is about comfort and “audiness” and less vibration and noise the better. Once the crankshaft has been treated to a knife edge, weight reduction and then balanced, it will be a non issue. This is about performance and not luxury. So lose the balance shaft. Like the R8 and Gallardo.
Heads are a non issue. The S6/S8 head is awesome and is basically identical to the 04-08 Gallardo, R8.
The super shitty intake manifold and exhaust is what chokes this engine.
This chit chat about needing massive low end torque cause the S6/S8 is a boat is a bit overblown and repeatedly over and over on this board it seems.
We are talking 5.2L of displacement and V10 torque with 12.5 compression… It can use bigger cams with no issue assuming valve-piston interference isn’t an issue. Bigger cams doesn’t always mean loss of low end torque. Aftermarket cams are about $3000 from Schickt (or how ever its spelled)
The S6/S8 already runs higher compression than the 04-08 Gallardo.
Why wont Gallardo manifolds bolt directly to a S6/S8? Nevermind space constraints. Their exhaust manifold gasket is basically the same part. Is the cylinder bore spacing causing issues here (88mm 04-08 Lambo VS 90mm Audi) The 09+ Lambo does have 90mm bore spacing but has a whole different set of heads and uses the shared pin crank.
After some time looking into this, the only other factor for high rpm power is the dry sump and a trans that can spin that high.