I really meant e.g. as in example. I shouldn’t have used approximations for your car slips or mine…(cough cough your 2-3 mph comment cough). Subconsciously, sure, it was a intentional dig to say you’re slower, pump or race…lol…you can take it if you can dish it out…you did name me first in the first post.
funny funny. Sure, you’re right, but I keep 110, toluene, and MTBE on hand in case the weather is nice. I’ll drop by Streetsville and pick up more if I’m running low, it’s like running out of milk for other people. For the last two items, I have to hit up the operators in my plant and/or put a work order to do some flowmeter testing, lol, and tell them to use the clean 5-gallon pails for ‘waste’ MTBE and toluene, and please leave them near the maintenance shop.
Actually in the states there’s many, many Sunoco retailers that carry 260GT. Prime pays the same for 100 as what we pay for 91. I’d likely be doing the same as him if I was down there.
haha ok you got me there, I hate the dyno and APR is just another tuner, just happens to be the faster one for the B8. I meant to qualify that as a ‘whatever’.
When it comes down to it, the last few points of what i was saying IS relevant. The idea behind tuning for race gas is pretty simple, and yes, there is obviously more gains to be had if your intake charge is heated up, unlike a NA motor. The more you add pressure and heat, the more gains you’ll get. We’re only part way there, nowhere near the B5, but the gains are real and measurable at a lower pressure.
So where’s the 4.2 improvement? I don’t think we have enough (any?) 4.2 data samples of cars that went back-to back with race gas to show an improvement, and I’d be surprised if there are any more than a couple degrees of ignition advanced when comparing optimized 93 vs optimized 100. That’s what I wanted to show you with APR’s graph. On 93 gas, NA motor will reach MBT sometimes well before a knock limit on timing exists. So obviously, at that point increasing octane doesn’t help, it may hurt flame propagation even.
Hey, if you put in high compression pistons or something in your NA car that takes advantage of a higher octane, then sure, you’ll see gains. But only because you put more heat or pressure in there to require to higher octane. And by that point you may no longer be able to run on 91, let alone 93…
The little gain we get, is felt, and it’s real and repeatable. I don’t think I ever claimed 0.6/6, in fact I have no idea where you got my quote for the opening post. But don’t knock Bear when he says 4 tenths, since I showed you that it’s true. If Bear goes 11.7x at some point when he runs 100 octane again, you may find I dig up your post where you tell him “so where do you get 4 tenths out of that?”
In all honestly, I may drive fast on the street, but i go to the track to actually race. I could care less if I lose a street race, if it’s a nice car I may goad him on to hear his exhaust or have some fun, get a thumbs up. I could give a fuck if someone in a civic walks me from a roll, he’d still get a thumbs up from me.
But when I go to the track, I always do a little prep, check/change my tire pressures, bleed the brakes a little if I’m going to the circuit, and do a quick once-over, dump all the crap out of my car, etc. Adding some race gas isn’t a big deal because I plan for it.
I’m sure that supercharged 4.2 would be 3-4 tenths faster on race gas…
I think you meant to say you couldn’t care less. i.e. the lowest point of caring possible. Zero care. If you “could care less”, that means you care at least some.
Note that I said ‘if you line up beside your friend’. Not some ricer in a Civic. Further do you not accelerate in your car at any time? Only at the dragstrip? I will say bs on that one, so there goes the ‘I only need performance at the track, thus I only need race gas at the track, therefore it is perfect’ theory. Maybe you should have bought a $50,000 A4 2.0T sline that looks identical to an S4. Since performance on the street doesn’t matter to you, you could then take the $15,000 and go fast in a dragstrip only dedicated race car. You can run 10s for that money, never mind fucking around in the mid 12s.
well last time I checked, you’re bone stock and your bone stock ‘record’ was 13.5 seconds. My RS4 is bone stock, and went 12.75 as well as about 20 other passes in the twelves. My RS4 has NEVER run as slow as 13.5 seconds, even when heatsoaked, the night I met you at the track in the summer, on 91 octane. So tell me again who is slower??
You keep saying ‘I keep it handy’ but it’s not so handy if you are on your way to work and you want to press the accelerator…only to realise ‘oh…my massive difference maker isn’t there’
I guess you’re missing the point. If your car isn’t that fast all the time, then your timeslips at the strip on race gas are an irrelevant benchmark. It’s about as relevant as going to the dragstrip and stripping your interior and fitting LW track wheels and drag radials. If you’re into competitively drag racing, sure go nuts. However we’re not in this discussion. We’re using the dragstrip as a benchmark for our cars to measure the effectiveness of mods. So why not measure our cars the way we drive our cars? Measuring them without an interior on wheels and tires we never drive on is irrelevant, and doesn’t represent the car (unless we drive like that on the street…which we don’t). Measuring them on race gas also doesn’t represent the car (again, unless we drive like that on the street…which we don’t).
As for the cost rebuttal, who compraes the cost of race gas in OHIO vs. pump gas in Ontario? Someone without a leg to stand on, that’s who. How about we compare the $11/gallon that my friend in Germany has to pay for his race fuel, and we compare it to pump gas in Venezuela (about $1/gallon). How’s that…now your race gas costs 13x as much.
Even your Ohio/Ontario comparison is terribly inaccurate.
Primetime said he pays $6.XX per gallon of 100 (we’ll pretend it’s $6.00 because you need all the help you can get)
We pay about $4.76 / gallon for 91 octane.
Even comparing the some of the most expensive 91 vs. the cheapest 100 on the continent, It’s a 25%+ premium.
Want to compare primetime’s $6 race fuel to what he pays for 91 in Ohio? $3.40 a gallon
Primetime pays a 75 % premium to run race gas.
I thought you were an engineer? This is simple math and fact checking.
How do you not remember this? I went to the strip on a 90 degree day in the summer…AND MET YOU THERE! I ran Shell Vpower and then ran some race gas. The difference was a hair over 2 tenths and 2 mph. Jnaut did the same in Florida, and the difference was again a hair over 2 tenths and 2 mph. He then ran with a few lightweight parts on the car, decatted, (no tune) and went 12.2.
How did I knock bear? I said the data doesn’t show 4 tenths. Your car didn’t hit 4 (it was 3…but was probably less as you’ll see below). His didn’t hit four (it was 1). When did pointing out the facts become knocking someone? This feels like audizine suddenly. “YOU HATER! YOUR FACTS MAKE ME REALISE I’M WRONG SO YOU’RE A HATER!”
As I hinted above, you claim a 3.X tenths gain…but lets get real. You said you made a boatload of passes at ATCO on race fuel…then went back the next day on 93 octane, only made a couple of passes, and quit. How the hell is that data that produced the 12.4 a good indication of what the car can do on 93??? I think your 3 tenths and 3 MPH is bogus. You sandbagged the result, effectively, by not bothering to make more passes. As we’ve seen with the other B8 S4 guys it’s more like 2 tenths and 2 mph difference. I reckon your car in incredible density altitude like you had that Sunday at Atco could run 12.30 flat…which would put you 2 tenths from your best ever race gas time.
Here’s me ‘knocking bear’
[quote=sakimano]81 On your car your best on 93 is what…12.05…and on race it was 11.96. Less than one tenth and less than one mph
So where do you get 4 tenths out of that?
Jspazz was a bit over three tenths and three mph.
[/quote]
Try not to get insulting Saki (grammar correction on commonly used phrases, “I thought you were and engineer”, saying I sandbagged the result (LOL! that one hurts the worst) among others). I only called your car slow, and yes, race or pump, I think it’s slow, as is my currently untuned B8. That is not a knock on you, only your car.
But, to me, you’re reaching if you are trying to argue that 0.357s and 3.86 mph is not an improvement. That’s the most consistent back-to-back example I can find, same track, next day.
Rather than me getting further into this, you can refute whatever evidence I give you however you like. I’ve given you 0.357 and 3.86. I want you to go back to your claim in the first post and tell me:
1.) Who has seen 0.2 and 2 mph improvements on an RS4? That’s what you claim.
2.) where did I say 0.6 and 6 mph?
If you don’t want to run race gas, don’t - i still don’t give a fuck. Ok, I’ll be insulting once - it’s only fair at this point - you’re cheap. I have never tried to do a feasibility study on my modifications, it never makes sense and never will. I have a good idea what costs what, and I don’t think anyone will convince me to go a certain way or not because Saki thinks it costs too much. I’ll run race gas at the track, I don’t go to the track to run internet comparisons to impress Saki how well I run on pump.
I think there is 0.0 seconds and 0 mph improvement on a RS4 - that is my claim. I’m not comparing to some stock vs stripped RS4, as you so claim “It’s about as relevant as going to the dragstrip and stripping your interior and fitting LW track wheels and drag radials” but just up the page, used his result as your evidence.
Anyhow please prove your first post, #1 and #2 above.
that’s not grammar…that’s a phrase that drives me nuts on forums.
I like how your example is the best, even though you did two runs then quit. That’s your benchmark? Be realistic. What about 81bear who ran, put in race gas, ran again. Same track, same day. I think that’s pretty much a perfect example. You ran twice, saw a 12.4 and a 12.6 and said ‘let’s get out of here’ because you had a long ass drive ahead of you and were likely sick of the dragstrip, especially when you had already gone 12.0 the day before. This is all fair…but this is a shitty example to use to express the beinefficientit of race gas on a B8 S4. You didn’t give pump gas a fair shake, so that’s frankly not very useful in this discussion.
I NEVER SAID 0.357 WAS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT
I said it’s not a massive improvement (you said that), and I said that it’s not much different to the 4.2 RS4 experience with race gas (you said the two platforms respond night and day different to race gas). I asked a question in this thread…‘what am I missing’. I still don’t see it. I said if I was expressing a delta that I considered ‘massive’ it would be more like 6 tenths or 6 mph. I never said you claimed race gas gave you that. Again, you said race gas gave the B8 a massive bump, and the 4.2 cars would get nothing like that bump. I simply don’t see it.
Since you are an engineer, I would assume you’d want to focus on the facts, not rhetoric or talk about hurt feelings. It’s pretty fucking simple. You said one thing. I said I didn’t agree. I presented facts that support what I said. You then talked about everything but the actual topic at hand…and now you’re making it out to be something it’s not.
I don’t think I’m cheap. If I was cheap I wouldn’t drive an Audi. The fact that you are loose with money doesn’t make eveyrone else cheap. Be very careful when you apply what you know about your family’s lifestyle or spending discipline (or lack thereof) to the rest of the world…it’s not exactly realistic. You calling someone ‘cheap’ for pointing out that running race gas full time will cost someone $7,000 over the life of their car means you’re just reacting emotionally, again, to facts that hurt your argument.
First, I’d like to say that this reminds me of the Obama vs. Romney debate…
So I’m going to be the “facts police”:
True – Sak is correct I did run race gas and didn’t see more than about 1 tenth and 2mph improvement
False – My run is not a “perfect example” as 1) I had a very short window to run race gas/tune and it has been clearly documented that the ECU needs calibration time and 2) Kavan was also there and ran a number of passes on both race and pump and did notice about a 4tenths difference (can’t remember the mph) so that would make him more of the “perfect example”.
True/False – Yes Sak did say “massive improvement” and in his eyes 3+ tenths is not “massive” however “massive” is subjective so to anyone else in the world 3+ tenths is “massive”(lol… J/K… But it is!)
True – Jspazz is an engineer… I think!
True/False – Is Sak cheap? Again, subjective…
I could do this all day but I will stop with the hope that I will put this debate to bed on Sunday. However, I probably won’t make that many passes on 94 and to be fair I no longer have the 100oct tune (it’s 104 now)…
P.S. where is GOD when you need him to unfreeze the damn site!!! LOL!
Okay I’m back… It’s okay… it was only a flesh wound… Lol!
I did run easily 18-25 passes but only about 3-5 on race gas as it takes forever to wast 1/4 tank of 94, then mix in the 104, then run the 104 on the 94 tune, then finally run the 104 on the 100 tune but have to wait for all the senors and such to recalibrate with the tune.
I was actually driving Kavan’s car and posted the best 94 run at 12.4x… Kavan posted his best race gas time at 12.0x and sorry but don’t remember the MPH.
I don’t ever remember PT running on 93 but I don’t know that for sure.
I was reasonably sure he ran 93 really early on. Those times are all lost in the mess that is audiworld. He had a boatload of ‘back from the dragstrip’ threads that I guess I could dig through if I was bored.
I only used 93 pre tune and wondered out loud how race gas would impact the car on stock tune… I fueled up and got a blowout on the way to the track… the next week APR announced the tune and after talking with APR a few times I convinced them to let me use the 100 tune(remember no switching at the time) with me promising I wouldn’t run anything less as they were worried I would kill the motor if I didn’t just run 100… Since I don’t daily it and have easy access to 100 I committed to them… The car has not seen 93 since about 1900 miles and it just turned 7000 last time at the strip… I did run 100 on the 100 tune when the tune “didn’t take correctly”… Not sure if it was pushing more timing or there were other changes but the bypass was still closing up top so the results were not so good… I went 12.81 as a best with 93 and just an intake and went 12.67 with 100 and just an intake and not really tuned…
intake… bone stock was 12.85… 12.67 with intake, 100 and tune that didn’t take fwiw… honestly, also didn’t give the car much adaptation as I got the ecu put it in and per APR let it run 15-20 minutes took it for a spin and then took it to the strip… DA’s were all between 1700-1900 on the 3 different times above…
1.) Still waiting for your slips Saki…RS4 data for you and the other guy.
2.) And the part where I said 0.6sec /6 mph.
If you’re talking about running on that hot day, a slower time than your best pump gas run, and you went 2 tenths faster on race gas, then I’d definitely say the race gas is doing its job. I remember you talking about doing low 13s that day, though.
I regularly spike 91 octane with toluene or MTBE if I can’t find 94. That’s probably all you needed that day anyway to get out of knock protection, if you had 94 in the tank you’d probably have been fine. I also spike with any of toluene, MTBE, or the 110 octane for any car I’m running at the circuit.
Yes Saki, I talk about my Dad’s cars sometimes, but that’s it - they’re his cars, his money. I do my own thing, live off my own means, yes I’m an engineer. Would be great if he felt otherwise, I’d be driving at tracks around the world and spending more time with my kids. And move to a fucking warmer climate.
I run race gas to go faster at the track, I spend more on it, but nothing like what you’re talking about. To each their own, but anyone who doesn’t like race gas, meth, nitrous, test pipes (which are illegal on the street, ask my brother about that lol), lowering their tire pressures, stripping out their interior, taking the spare and jack out, running low on fuel, whatever, that’s their problem. I like to go faster at the track, I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone to run the EXACT way they do on the street - and you don’t set the rules as to how people run on the track, Saki.
