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#3162

yes, I made a strong generalisation. Some religious people that should say.

We’re having a nice religious debate here in Canada regarding the Niqab and the burka…and whether or not they should be worn during citizenship oath ceremonies. If you ever take the oath while being sworn in as a citizen, and you’re not saying the words, or are mumbling, or are just mailing it in and the judge sees you, the judge will stop the ceremony, and boot you out. You get to wait a few more months till you’re ready to do it right.

If you’re wearing a niqab or a burka, nobody can see

a) who it is
b) if they’re bothering

So our government (conservative) is trying to ban the niqab/burka from the ceremony. If you want to take the oath, show your face, and take the oath like everyone else.

Of course the ‘right to religious freedom’ argument is coming on strong. The thing is, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (similar to constitution) has an umbrella clause that says you have these rights and freedoms, however the wants of the few are outweighed by the needs of the many. Sure you have freedom…but your freedom doesn’t mean your religious beliefs trump everyone elses, and that your religious beliefs must be imparted on society. It means you have the right to practice your religion, while following the laws of the land. You have to put your beliefs aside at some point. For example the quran says that non muslims living in muslim lands should be given 3 choices:

  1. convert to islam
  2. pay a tax (jizya)
  3. death

Those are pretty extreme lol. Problem is there are groups who deem heavily populated muslim centres ‘muslim lands’. So should these religious laws trump the actual law in the jurisdiction? Fuck no. There’s a limit to these freedoms.

For example we used to say the lord’s prayer in school. Lots of jewish students in big city centres would abstain, and it eventually turned into a big debate. The prayer was eliminated from schools. All prayer. Suited me fine as an atheist. The one jewish girl in my class in grade 1 was I’m sure happy to not have to listen to this Christian prayer she didn’t believe in. So were the 2 muslim kids and I’m sure a couple others (I didn’t know anyone was jewish, muslim, or anything until I was older and saw them on facebook lol). I was definitely happy because I didn’t know the words and didn’t believe in a lick of it.

Interestingly, that is being somewhat reversed. Muslim students in some parts of toronto are actually being given time off several times a day to pray, and seperate spaces are being created )in public schools) to allow them to pray. Boys up front, girls in the back. Pretty incredible turnaround.

I think political correctness is a little silly. Everyone can’t wait to perceive their rights as being trampled on so they can scream out. Those videos on youtube of morons refusing to comply with police are an example. They’re creating situations so they can get righteous, and are surprised when they get arrested (or beat, or shot when they resist/fight)

#3163

yes, lots of people interpret their religions differently. Interesting how it happens.

personally I can’t really have a religious debate with anyone because either

1/ you’re an atheist - like me, and you don’t really have anything to discuss since you believe in none of it
2/ you’re religious - thus you also don’t believe in 99.99% of religions out there (as mentioned above) other than your 0.01% of views…and if you believe in your 0.01% in the face of already not believing everything else, why would you stop believing in that 0.01% now?

For those two reasons it’s a completely pointless debate unless you just want to see people not finding common ground.

#3164

This is why I consider myself ignostic lol

#3165

i guess there’s also the agnostic position, which i generally take to mean an atheist who hasn’t for some reason (perhaps social stigma) owned up to what he/she really believes - i.e., there is no god. I’ve never known an agnostic to turn religious, but I am aware of religious types turning agnostic.

I think the social stigma thing of being an atheist (it’s probably more pronounced in the States than in Canada/Europe) will dissipate as religion becomes less of a dominant factor in public life. I personally have no qualms telling people that I affirmatively believe there is no god (atheism isn’t just “non-belief,” as some would say - it’s an affirmative belief), but I know plenty of people who would prefer not to publicly make that claim.

Edit: Axel sorta beat me to it.

#3166

I’m ignostic, not agnostic.

#3167

I agree that being “PC” sometimes is going overboard to the point of bending over backwards. I do believe that ‘reasonable’ accommodations should be made.

One thing that I do not like is ‘imposing’ on others. If i have to take off work to fulfill an obligation, I take the day off and give ample heads up that I’m taking some time off. Be it personal, medical, or religious.

My opinion on the matter (lol and we’re going off topic in this thread again - and i REALLY don’t want a religion thread on here LMAO) is that it’s mainly cultural difference. Take any religious denomination and compare folks from different geographic locations and you’ll probably get two different responses for the same stimuli.

#3168

I can’t even figure out what that is

“Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless, because the term “god” has no unambiguous definition.”

#3169

yes, lots of people interpret their religions differently. Interesting how it happens.

personally I can’t really have a religious debate with anyone because either

1/ you’re an atheist - like me, and you don’t really have anything to discuss since you believe in none of it
2/ you’re religious - thus you also don’t believe in 99.99% of religions out there (as mentioned above) other than your 0.01% of views…and if you believe in your 0.01% in the face of already not believing everything else, why would you stop believing in that 0.01% now?

For those two reasons it’s a completely pointless debate unless you just want to see people not finding common ground.

#3170

lol I’ve never heard of ‘ignosticism’.

Guess I’ll be doing a bit of reading when I’m off work (more for curiosity).

#3171

This is why I consider myself ignostic lol

#3172

In a nutshell, the concept is that arguing the existence of god is completely meaningless because no one can agree on the definition of god to begin with (including people of the same religion, atheists, etc.).

Think about it, it’s like arguing whether life outside our planet exists. Before you can even argue whether it does or not, you need to agree on what you mean by life. Carbon based? Humanoid? Bacterial? Silicon based? Vegetal? Conscious/Cognitive? Animal based?

100 people could argue about the existence of god and no one would agree with each other and in actuality, no one bother to first define what it is they mean by god. To one person it could be some form of energy and to another, some old dude with a beard, and so on and so on.

So stop arguing as to whether god exists or not in the first place. You can’t debate something exists or doesn’t exist if you haven’t defined what it is you’re actually debating in the first place lol.

#3173

i guess there’s also the agnostic position, which i generally take to mean an atheist who hasn’t for some reason (perhaps social stigma) owned up to what he/she really believes - i.e., there is no god. I’ve never known an agnostic to turn religious, but I am aware of religious types turning agnostic.

I think the social stigma thing of being an atheist (it’s probably more pronounced in the States than in Canada/Europe) will dissipate as religion becomes less of a dominant factor in public life. I personally have no qualms telling people that I affirmatively believe there is no god (atheism isn’t just “non-belief,” as some would say - it’s an affirmative belief), but I know plenty of people who would prefer not to publicly make that claim.

Edit: Axel sorta beat me to it.

#3174

I’m ignostic, not agnostic.

#3175

^^ lol back on topic.

#3176

I can’t even figure out what that is

“Ignosticism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless, because the term “god” has no unambiguous definition.”

#3177

lol I’ve never heard of ‘ignosticism’.

Guess I’ll be doing a bit of reading when I’m off work (more for curiosity).

#3178

In a nutshell, the concept is that arguing the existence of god is completely meaningless because no one can agree on the definition of god to begin with (including people of the same religion, atheists, etc.).

Think about it, it’s like arguing whether life outside our planet exists. Before you can even argue whether it does or not, you need to agree on what you mean by life. Carbon based? Humanoid? Bacterial? Silicon based? Vegetal? Conscious/Cognitive? Animal based?

100 people could argue about the existence of god and no one would agree with each other and in actuality, no one bother to first define what it is they mean by god. To one person it could be some form of energy and to another, some old dude with a beard, and so on and so on.

So stop arguing as to whether god exists or not in the first place. You can’t debate something exists or doesn’t exist if you haven’t defined what it is you’re actually debating in the first place lol.

#3179

is that bacchus?

#3180

^^ lol back on topic.

#3181

is that bacchus?