Air Intake and A restriction?

I saw, and replied to a similar thread on AZ. BTW, my first post here :slight_smile:

Regrading this statement from SSP_255, 3.0L self study guide:
The intake noise is damped by a Helmholtz resonator.

The intake resonator is not a silencer and is not designed to make the car more appealing to soccer moms. Noise means more than just an audible signal. In electronics, noise is unwanted random addition to a signal. In the intake system, noise is unwanted addition to laminar flow. Sound waves travel through ___ (fill in the blank). If you said “air”, you are correct. When the intake valves close, the air bounces off of of the valves (see explanation below) and creates a “ping”. That ping is noise, unwanted addition to laminar flow. The helmholtz resonator reflects the ping and actually boosts the input of air into the next cylinder in the firing order by increasing the velocity as the intake valve opens. This is due to the frequency at which it operates. The ping from the previous intake valve close is timed to pong the next intake valve opening in order to ensure that there is no dead air space in the manifold. Sound reduction is a side effect.

My response on AZ:

First off, I applaud “out of the box thinking.” Innovation comes from challenging the Status Quo.

Now, here is why I would not change my air intake in this manner however:

The air intake system on our Audi’s has been designed to deliver the most efficient method of getting air into the cylinder. It is designed and tested using some of the most advanced tools available. These tools have been developed specifically for measuring the effects of airflow from the leading edge of the air intake all of the way to the lip of the intake valve(s).

The most efficient delivery of air is laminar. Laminar flow essentially means that the air moves directly through the system with the least amount of turbulence. We want the outside cold air to move through the system and into the combustion chamber as quickly as possible so we can take advantage of the cooler oxygen rich environment that this air provides. Turbulence in the air intake reduces air flow as it creates opposing forces that fight against the direct flow of air. This turbulent air can gain heat as it continually comes in contact with the warm walls of the intake. Turbulence also causes fluctuations in the mass of the air.

Why is air mass fluctuation bad? The air mass is measured by the MAF and is used by the ECU to balance and deliver the correct air/fuel ratio to the engine. These are closed loop systems and the O2 sensor checks to see if the ECU made the right air/fuel mix decision. If the system is stable, that is the air mass doesn’t fluctuate, the measurement, adjustment and testing would plot to a smooth curve. The air mass measured is the same as it gets to the combustion chamber and the air/fuel mixture is correct. If the air mass is constantly fluctuating, then the system is constantly making corrections and a plot would look like a series of wild peaks and valleys as it constantly tries to measure and correct itself. The fluctuations cause the wrong air/fuel mixture to be delivered to the combustion chamber.

There are two things that can have an adverse effect on the air intake and create air mass fluctuation. These are Air buffeting and Resonance.

Air buffeting is something that I think most of us are familiar with. Roll down your window or open the sun roof at certain speeds and the cyclic pressure of the air passing over the opening creates an air hammer effect. How do we solve that problem? Well, we could say f’ it and close the window or sun roof, or we partially open another window, right? The pressure equalizes and our ears eventually stop bleeding. The same thing happens with the opening of the air intake. Air passing over the entrance to the air inlet creates a cyclic pressure differential and the air mass constantly fluctuates. How is this problem solved? The same way that we solve it in the passenger area, we create another opening that helps to equalize the pressure. Just before the air filter, another opening allows air to slowly bleed off through the fender well. This allows the pressure inside the intake tube to equalize and stop the buffeting. In turn this helps to create a laminar flow along the airs path to the intake manifold. As air passes the MAF the air mass is stable and information sent to the ECU can then set the correct air/fuel mixture to hit the cylinder at the right time due to the laminar flow of air. I think blocking off the equalizer opening into the wheel well makes the MAF’s ears bleed.

Resonance. Resonance is caused by the pulsing draw of air into the engine. The engine doesn’t draw air steadily like a vacuum cleaner. Each cylinder only draws air 1/4th of the time and this is during the intake stroke. While the cylinder is drawing the air it also isn’t at a steady rate. At top dead center (TDC), the piston stops, changes direction, the intake valves open and the air is drawn in. As the piston reaches for bottom dead center (BDC) it moves faster through the stroke so the intake is progressive. At BDC the intake valve(s) close. Suddenly, all of the air that was rushing past those valves is stopped and the air around those valves bounces back in the opposite direction. Remember, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That pressure wave can travel all of the way back through the air intake system and cause turbulence. How can we absorb that shock wave so we don’t interrupt the flow of air for the next cylinder? By installing a resonator just before the throttle body. A helmholtz resonator to be exact. The pressure wave moving in the opposite direction of flow tries to ram air into the neck of the resonator. The pressure inside the cavity increases and the air bounces out equalizing the pressure and keeps the wave from disrupting the laminar flow. In ricer terms, removing the intake resonator makes their cars “growl” and the sound is always more important than horsepower or fuel economy.

Your results may vary. Opposing view points welcome. Additional pepperoni available upon request.

Where I mention “we create another opening that helps to equalize the pressure” , I meant that the engineers have already created the opening to the wheel well just before the filter box. it exists on the stock A4 B6 3.0L setup already.

In the last paragraph I mentioned “By installing a resonator just before the throttle body.”, and again, that exists on the stock A4 B6 3.0L setup already.

To summarize, the best setup for performance , IMHO, is to leave the stock air intake system alone for a NA A4 B6 3.0L. Once we all get a Supercharger to bolt on in the future then we may need to rethink it :slight_smile:

Wow, great post 4g. You just made me rethink a lot of what I’ve heard and done on not just the a4 but also previous vehicles. I’m definitely contemplating putting the intake back to stock now.

Great post factually wrong…

So far its been proven that blocking off the air box makes more power and that removeing the rez will help flow.

Actually comonsence will tell you that. Anything that impeds with the flow of air is going to cause a loss of power. While opening up a window might help create a different pressure zone in the cabon… the idea and working of RAM AIR is simple. Get the strightest shot of air from the outside to the throttle body. No turns no disturbence. Helmholtz creates disturbence in the flow. It impeeds with the pulse of the motor bringing in air by having a break in the air flow. The Gelmholtz actual job is to create turblience to break up the noise… Its clear remove it from your car you will now hear the intake being louder…why more un interupted air flow.

If what 4g was saying was true it would be on more sport models…and its not… Its only on things like the 3.0 and the A8 cars where they wanted to quiet down the noise.

It dosen’t matter what any of us say. Audi uses and classified the part by calling it a noise damping system.
The intake noise is damped by a Helmholtz resonator… The fact that Audi went out of the way to let us know they put the helmholtz on there to dampen the noise is because they put it on there to dampen the noise…you dampen noise by disturbing the air flow that carrys the noise.

Fact Audi didn’t make the best design for flow of the air… they tell us that and thats why you block off the air box and remove the helmoholtz…

I hate to say this… but while 4g made a great first post it was wrong…check the performance increase to back up the known theory…As to not argue… if any of what he said was true…why is it not on the S4 RS4 S5 RS5 R8… The helmholtz creates a disturbence in flow… You want high pressure not equalized pressure on top of your thorttle body. The entire point he made was mute… IF that was true no one would make a ram air. If that was true no one would gain any power with an open element… Great post… juts not mechanically factual on the performacne side…

What I would add to that is the intake manifold is rigid for a reason. To give the Helmholtz resonator the best chance to minimize the air bounce of the back of the closed valves.

Also the ribbed flex pipe at the front of the engine bay is to help draw water out of the flow of air.
So it doesn’t go right into the motor.

Edit.
Yes, lets just ram air straight into the MAF and throttle body and we will see a power increase.
That works great on cars that don’t have multi valve timing. Last time I checked Audis have multi valve timing.

and if you missed my post. Here is audi saying this is how it works.

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/862433931.jpg

Ok chris, so if I understand correctly, the general consensus from those who have be playing with the intake for a while now is that the most power is developed when fender intake is closed/blocked and res is removed and blocked.
Now I put forward a question. Currently my setup is, stock intake with blocked fender intake, res removed, gutted cats, 2.5 magnaflow catback and JHM tune. I just recently did all these upgrades and, while the car has a noticeable increase in power across the spectrum, i’m now having stalling issues and fyi its an auto. While keeping rpms above roughly 1500 I’ve had no problems, but I’ve found that once in a while driving around town at slow speeds, and generally it seems to happen most while slowly accelerating from a stop, the throttle stops responding. It’s almost as though its being choked off, rpms just drop right off, sometimes the engine dies completely and sometimes its only a momentary lapse. Hooking up VCDS I have no engine codes thrown so I’m kinda at a loss. I’ve been pondering swaping the ecu back out just to confirm the error is not in the ecu itself, but after reading this thread the other day I started to wonder if, with that fender intake blocked, the engine is not able to draw enough air in while at a standstill.
So I guess my question is, have you or anyone else ran into this issues while doing some upgrades?

Wow. Just, wow. What did facts ever do to you? You seem to hate them a lot. What is factually wrong? Did you read what I wrote? Or are you going to just keep repeating the same flawed information no matter what? You are also still confusing noise and sound. I welcomed opposing opinions backed by fact. Where are the irrefutable facts that you claim can be backed up?

I referenced the same Picture form SSP_255, 3.0L self study guide. And yes, Audi tells us exactly how it works. My explanation is consistent with what is described and written in the picture. Who says that Audi didn’t make the best design? You just choose to interpret it your own way. So far, it has NOT been proven that blocking off the air box or removing the resonator makes more power. I see most people saying that they could not measure any difference but it sounds different.

Maybe others will be interested in this. Here are some references to show that this is not voodoo science and that is factual:
http://www.planetsoarer.com/resonator/ResonatorsAcoustic.htm
http://blog.autospeed.com/2003/11/30/those-funny-things-teed-into-intakes
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/84316-how-intake-resonators-improve-volumetric-efficiency
http://www.ehow.com/info_12156112_air-intake-resonator-do.html
http://www.ipdusa.com/blogs/63/air-intake-advice

Rev,

This may not apply, but did you do a Throttle Body Alignment after the ECU install?

Throttle Body Alignment:
Turn the key to the position just before the starter turns (do not start) push the gas peddle all the way down and wait wait 3 seconds and turn the key all the way back (off) but do not remove it. Release the gas peddle and wait 2 minutes. You should hear some clicks as it resets. Remove key then put it back in and start the car. you should notice a better throttle response.

Without quoting that long quote.

here is what you missed. There is a guy that went to the track on the air box. Closed it off and went faster. case closed.

Did you read your link… no huh… Im not looking to argue… Im looking to help educate you… Your right in some spots missing it in others…

ok

your points your missing. Audi in its rightings. and I quote…

From Audi
The air intake noise is damped by a helmoltz resonator… This dampenes noise from 4000-5000rpm…

Did you miss that. Noting about needing this to be for performance… To talk more educated… The intake track in the intake manifold switches over at 4500. This will cause a ton of noise… motor noise…

Resonators are helpful for volume efficency… in this case its not why its being used… This is described by Audi for noise canlelations ONLY…What your keeping out is that resonators only work for a small part of the rev range and there helpful in performance only for a small needed range… if there needed at all… Now if your going and creating a high pressure area in your air box and then getting the motor to move faster with an exhaust the resonator is now usless as teh VE of the motor has increased and now the Resonator… if it is there for performance…even tho audi themselfves say its not… is no longer efficenct…

Apparently you don’t know much about mechanics… If you want to prevent frequency bounce back… you charge the intake track… you do this by blocking off the air box or by creating a ram air effect… Or you up the VE of the motor… you do this by… a program… exhaust… the list goes. on…

from just two of the links you provided…

The point to be noted here is that you will get maximum beits of increased volumetric efficiency only if the engine running frequency and the resonator frequency are properly tuned.

Then there is the pressure system that creating the flow restriction SLOWS down the air.

resonators tuned to a particular frequency and connected to the intake system.

Once again. Defend your point… WHY is this not on the performance motors then? if this is what your chalking this up to be… show me this on an R8… and S4… S5… why is there not one on the 3.2…

simple… the intake tract on the 3.0 is loud and its a big motor for such a little car the power isn’t big and the motor isn’t moving fast through the RPM rage… this is a big formula for a loud intake track… Thus a resonator is needed at the 4000 range…

You don’t have to believe me but audi tells you right in the discription and STUDY guide why its there…

inase you missed it

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/862433931.jpg

None of this would be your issue. Stalling issues with the Auto guys tends to be from a small vac leak… did you change all yoru vac stuff… try there first. Check your long term fuel trims… maybe make a new thread.

LOL! Real scientific. A single run on a car with vacuum leaks. It needed 3 runs stock and 3 runs modified under the same conditions to be considered irrefutable.

BTW, AFAIK, he went to the track with an open element and switched to a hacked up stock intake. No where near a controlled experiment. Shows more so that a stock intake works better than open element and may have worked better if not modified. Who knows?

You ARE looking to argue since you are not educating me. This is real simple, just show me the facts that hacking up the stock intake works. i don’t think you can

So far everyone has noticed a differece… It was shown at the track… still not enough… you didn’t answer the question if this was for performance where is it on the R8 S4 S5 the A6 3.2

I say its for noise as most cars with loud intake track noise have used these… You say…

Quote by 4g3n7 :
The intake resonator is not a silencer and is not designed to make the car more appealing to soccer

I say and take the time to read the part where AUDI says this is used to DAMPEN intake noise…

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/862433931.jpg

According to you… The proof from the track… The proof from Audi and the proof from the other members is wrong. AUDI IS LIEING TO US… all because you read about silencers on Google one night…

Not done arguing?
Everyone? I think not. Still not enough, where are the facts? Shown at the track? great, let’s see the results.

Who cares? I never mentioned anything other than 3.0L. This is the B6 A4 forum. I am not going to do the research on their designs. You do it if you are so interested.

blah blah blah. You still want to interpret the blurb from Audi your own way. No where does it say that the intake is defective.

You claim “everyone” sees a difference. I think these subjective claims are more urban myth than truth. If anyone can come up with some empirical evidence then present it. I see that quite a few folks have done the mod. I am sure someone logged before and after. Hasn’t anyone measured a difference at the track? Other than the first one who switched from open element to Stock Air Box. Oh wait, there was the test that shoved a piece of wood under the gas pedal on a Drive By Wire and had 2 wildly different measurements on only 2 runs. Maybe the third run would have mashed the carpet down even further and gotten better results.

At least my research cites references.

Sorry you must have missed where I posted FACTS FROM AUDI… Ill do it again and quote what you said…

This time read where Audi said this was for NOISE… and that you said it wasn’t… You clearly missed that… Not one thing in your argument stands up… Audi just said you were wrong… Then you can’t back this performance part up giving us ONE example of Audi using this for any perfomance improvement as you just said… Not one… since you can’t offer one… I ll help you… This NON perfomance mod thats not for performncce its for cancling sound… is not on a S4 4.2 or a S8 4.2 or a 3.2 A6 or the RS4 all performace cars.

Quote by 4g3n7 :
The intake resonator is not a silencer and is not designed to make the car more appealing to soccer moms

I say and take the time to read the part where AUDI says this is used to DAMPEN intake noise…

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/862433931.jpg

Its not a blurb… this is the AUDI TRAINING GUIDE… TO TRAIN people on what parts on on the motor for… FACTS YOU seem to egnore them… The FACTS are right there in the AUDI STUDY guide…

The only thing your research has shown is you CAN’T READ THE STUDY GUIDE FROM AUDI THAT TELLS YOU WHAT THE PART IS THERE FOR…

LOL! You keep posting the same thing over and over and I have already told you that you are misinterpreting it for your own purpose thinking it’s going to defy logic at some point. It doesn’t and it won’t. Someone else needs to explain it to you.

I stated my opinion on why I wouldn’t screw up my intake as suggested and you get all defensive but without any defense! There is no proof that it does anything. Why would anyone do this to their car without understanding what it does and if it benefits them? I hope my post makes somebody at least stop and think before just blindly trusting in something they read on a forum without any proof that it works.

You can keep arguing by yourself and try to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about. Up to this point you have looked pretty foolish. Post that picture a few more times, maybe you will actually understand what it says at some point. I am done here.

Good luck to you and everyone else!

4g3n37 sounds like one of the guys datadatum was describing in this post

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=1949.msg52217#msg52217

Came here and posted a pile of stuff he just learned, and just wanted everyone to see how smart he is. Unfortunately all he did is show us what he doesn’t know, and tried to make a few things fit into his theory.

When a new person comes to a forum, they love to try to make a splash and show everyone what they’re all about. Unfortunately he has just shown that

a) he can’t read (the study guide is VERY clear)
b) he is more interested in his own ego than in making anyone’s car faster

Those aren’t exactly good things, and people won’t last on this forum with that mentality.

He posted the same thing because you’re being pigheaded and ridiculous and are ignoring it. You’re not reading the fucking screen. Audi explains why the resonator is there. To quell an unpleasant noise on an otherwise sedate car that was originally marketed to people looking for a smoothe highway cruising family sedan, and who didn’t want the clatter of the 4 banger 1.8T…or the roar of the S4 4.2. That’s what the 3.0 was marketed as. They aren’t selling the 3.0 A4 to people who slap a fart can on a car and want a loud ass intake. They’re selling to people who appreciate quiet.

That part is there for one purpose, and one purpose only: to create a smoothe and calm engine note through the rev range and to eliminate the burst of sound that happens on crossover in the 4000+ RPM range. It’s a resonator. It is there to offset an irritating sound.

I don’t know why you want to talk about the various types of noise you learned about in one of your 2nd year engineering courses. This is a fucking sound inhibitor on a family sedan. Just as the resonators in the exhaust are. just as the baffling in the stock mufflers are. When we want a freer flowing exhaust to allow the NA motor to improve its volumetric efficiency and make more power, guess what we do. WE ELIMINATE THEM. If we find other inhibitors on the intake side, we eliminate them as well.

They are all designed to make the car sound civilized. To make power (which is what the 3rd and 4th hand owners of these cars want, most of those who are posting here anyway) you need to eliminate restrictions and that means you need to allow for more noise.

There is no helmholtz resonator on ANY of the S/RS models. Why? because buyers of the S/RS models are fine with a litle bit of grunt. They want performance. They accept increased sound levels in the pursuit of performance.

This is what happens when you try and use words you don’t understand. Empirical evidence is gathered based on observations as opposed to theories. The wood block test is simple and it works. You move the gas pedal to the exact same position each time. If it didn’t make a difference the car wouldn’t go faster. The results weren’t dramatic, they were in line with the difference made by sealing off the airbox.

Oh, and it was tested on the 1/4 with verified results (2 or 3 10ths improvement)

derp derp

Ahhhhh knowlegable people…sakimano… meisteh… nice to have voice of reason amd fact back in the thread… I was worried I was going to hwve to circle and under line the words on the study guide…

If laminar flow helps with performance, than why would people take catalytic converters out? The cells it help to remove turbulence from the air as it passes through.

The resonator on the intake will essentially create a dead spot for air in the intake. While I doubt it is the major factor in the improved performance, it probably still has an impact. I’d guess that blocking off the fender intake portion is the main factor in getting more power, but every little bit helps.

What would be nice to find would be a silicone intake tube to replace the ribbed sections on the intake. I’m guessing that there isn’t nearly enough demand to warrant producing them though.