Canadian Real Estate

How many times are we going to read in the news that the market is overheated in Vancouver and Toronto before prices finally turn the other way.

It was just released by BMO that 42% of their first time home buyers were expecting help from their parents. It didn’t confirm how many actually get the help but it’s certainly an upward trend.

That’s a problem. It means these ridiculous prices are in large part being perpetuated by the bank of mom and dad. There will only be a finite number of parents who can manage to help their kids out; perhaps there will be a rate hike at some point; home price increases are still wayyyyyyy outpacing wage increases…just fucking blow up already. Or soft land. Something.

Why can’t parents be saying to their kids “wait for the correction.”

real estate tends to grind up about the same rate as inflation, and tends to correct (substantial 20-40% corrections) every 18-20 years

Our last major correction was in 1989-1993, where prices fell some 40-50% from their 1989 peaks.
America had a fairly huge correction in 2007-2009 where prices corrected similarly
Canada also had a correction in 2009, and prices fell 10-15%, so not quite a major drop, but still a drop.

Since then, interest rates have fallen even further allowing for a quick recovery as affordability debt wise is at historic levels. I just saw a 2.44% mortgage (5 year fixed) offer from a major bank the other day.

The big impetus for a drop in housing prices will be a rise in interest rates. When that will be nobody knows. From the feel around the economy both here, the US and Europe, that won’t be anytime in the next 24 months. We may see a half percent tick up as rates fell quite a bit here recently, and they’re due to return to their more comfortable recent range, but we won’t see a 300 basis point move in the 5year any time soon, I don’t think. Just my opinion. Tha’ts a huge move.

FYI look at 5 year bonds for an idea what is happening with 5 year mortgage rates. People all too often think the Bank rate or fed funds rate in the us is a good indicator, but that’s strictly for floating rate loans.

I feel like Toronto specific prices have been increasing at a way higher pace than inflation.

http://www.gauntlet.net/MLSTorontoPrices.jpg

(Source: http://www.torontorealestateboard.com/market_news/market_watch/historic_stats/pdf/Historic_1503.pdf)

However, inflation has been hovering around 1 to 2 % year over year for the country.

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/canada/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-canada.aspx

Am I reading the data wrongly?

yes you are a little, but you’re thinking short term (your recency bias) and I’m talking long term. You are taking a 75 year average (the rate at which house prices tick along) and then looking at a 10 year section and say ing ‘it’s not adding up to that’

Inflation has averaged about 3%/ year for the last century.
Homes have grown about 3% a year for the last century. If you look at a boom period, sure its steeper. If you look at a correction, it’s negative slope. Average it out, and you’re at 3%.

Look at the last peaky time back in 1989. $290,000?

Today, 26 years later we are at around $575,000?

Guess what $290,000 compounded at 3% for 26 years equals…$625,000

So we’re actually a little BEHIND pace from the last peak. We’ve only grown about 2.75%, not 3.0%. We’re bang on for the long term though.

:slight_smile:

Go to the previous bottom in 1996 if you want to get the best possible growth rate out of the last 30 years. $220,000 or so in 1996, yes? This is the worst possible comparison and shows only boomtime growth remember…the growth rate should be HUGE right?

It’s 5.0%. It’s really not that extreme.

Compounded $220,000 at 3% for 19 years = $385,000. The fact we’re looking at a linear chart for a compounding item is what makes the steepness look a little off. If we used a logarithmic chart it would look less funky.

So we’re well ahead of that pace. People think that because a 1 year period was a 9% gain, suddenly there’s a bubble. We need perspective. Further, people who buy new builds and see a 25% bump in 2 years think everything is going nuts ,but that’s again not ‘the market’…that’s a one off.

Don’t also forget that you’re looking only at Toronto, the hottest market in the country.

I see. That makes sense. The only thing is, I wasn’t around 100 years ago. I wasn’t earning a living 30 years ago. So it’s natural for me (and other people like me) to only look over the last 10 to 30 years, especially first time home buyers since they couldn’t buy house any earlier.

I need to figure out where I want to live I guess. Toronto isn’t as appealing as it once was. Now it has higher house prices and way more congestion than the 80s and 90s. I used to really like Toronto but I’m not so sure anymore.

So for shits and giggles, I searched online for comparative house prices in the world.

Funny enough but according to the economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/11/global-house-prices), Canada is in third place (not good) when comparing house prices (on a national level) in respect to income.

Only Australia and Belgium are worse off. Switzerland, known for its high real estate prices, is actually fairing quite well.

It’s not so much the bank of mom and dad its the money coming from outside the country and being used to buy up as much property as possible. Vancouver is brutal for real estate being sold and then staying empty as people from outside are buying it as an investment and just sitting on it. I am sure Toronto is in the same boat as Vancouver. As soon as a property begins development they are sold out, but lay half empty year round.

I’ve read that Vancouver real estate in particular is a prime target for rich Chinese. Apparently the affluent in China are increasingly parking their money in foreign assets out of fear of domestic political uncertainties.

Bingo

It’s more a way for affluent Chinese to hide their money from the government. If someone starts bringing in millions of dollars from off shore, questions will be asked. Buying Vancouver, and other foreign real estate, is a great way to hide it while allowing it to grow.

^^ that’s what I meant by domestic political uncertainties