Diagnostic Help - CEL, Timing, Vibration

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

2005 S4 (Tiptronic) @ 155k miles (stock timing parts, no tune, minimal mods). APOLOGIES - this is a long post :-[ but it’s kicking my butt and I want to address this before it progresses into something worse. :-\

  • Oil Change @ every 5-7k miles.
  • Daily Driver @ 75 miles/day
  • Rotate and Roadforce balance every ~6k miles
  • Never had a check engine light come on or flash in the 3 years I’ve owned the car (seems impossible, but it’s true!!). Lights up briefly on start-up so the bulb is good! ::slight_smile:

Recent Work
92k - new front brakes+rotors
122k - new snub mount, belt/tensioner/idler assembly, IM spacers
130k - new front CV axles, control arms (upper & lower), wheel bearings, rear brakes+rotors
135k - new tires
151k - new wheels
154k - trans fluid & filter, alignment, inner tie rods

I had it in the shop last week for the 154k work mentioned above; I was hoping they could disgnose the following, but they could not figure anything out. Anyone have any thoughts? [headbang]

Diagnostic #1: High Speed Vibration
Problem:
Starting at around 60mph and beyond, there is a fairly significant vibration in both the steering wheel and seats. Is worse at some speeds, changing 1-2mph can make a big difference, however every day is a little different. It is worse in the 2-3 weeks following a wheel rotation then settles down a bit.

History/My Thoughts:
Had vibration issues from Day 1 although it was very minor then. Progressively getting worse as car ages, much worse in recent months. Seems speed related. Down or up-shifting at speed does not change frequency or severity. On second set of tires. First set had “flutter” identified in two, I thought changing tires would do it but nope. Unless I got unlucky with tires again. No mention of out of round tires by tire shop this time though. Rotating/balancing/etc doesn’t help, almost makes it worse for the first week or two. Seems worse when first driving until things warm up (4-5 miles). An alignment I had at 130k mentioned a bolt in the rear was “frozen”, but I was at the very edge of the spec for being OK so they left it. Could this being so close to “off” mess the tire wear up enough to create the vibration? The frozen bolt was replaced last week and alignment is now deadnuts on spec.

Diagnostic #2: Low Speed Wheel Noise
Problem:
Around 35-45mph, there is a “cyclic” noise. Speed dependent. No vibration accompanies it and it is really only around 35-45mph. Seems to come from the front and started maybe 10k miles ago?

History/My Thoughts:
Don’t think it is a wheel bearing since (1) they are faily new and (2) it does not get worse with swerving or faster speed. Not a constant drone either.

Diagnostic #3: Traction Control Light Intermittent On/Off
Problem:
Traction light turns on every few trips. Sometimes it comes on after driving a while. Other times it’s on immediately and shuts off after driving for a while.
History/My Thoughts:
Has done this since I’ve owned the car. Recently getting more frequent (from 2/10 times to 6/10 times.) Seems to get worse after rain/wet/damp. It doesn’t affect driving much (traction control still works) but it affects the acceleration/shifting only sometimes, (upshifting too fast; poor accelareation). Has never impacted downshifts.

Diagnostic #4: Intermittent Rough Idle
Problem:
More recently, at idle, if I am at a stoplight/stopped for more than maybe 15 seconds, sometimes the RPMs drop momentarily and the car very lightly shudders. This comes and goes, sometimes it happens a few times then is fine for the remainder of the light.
History/My Thoughts:
No idea what this is, perhaps related to the code below?

There were a few faults stored and pulled at time of service. I know the cooling sensor is wonky and only works 1/2 the time. I don’t see it as causing any of the other issues but I included it anyway just in case. My biggest concern is the Camshaft A code. Again, I’ve never seen a CEL.

Address 01: Engine
19497 - Powertrain Databus
P3041 - 004 - Implausible Engine Temp. Message from Inst. Panel - Intermittent

16395 - Bank 1: Camshaft A (Intake)
P0011 - 008 - Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced) - Intermittent

Address 03: ABS Brakes
01826 - Sensor for Steering Angle (G85); Supply Voltage Terminal 30
35-00 - -

Address 17: Instruments
01039 - Coolant Temperature Sensor (G2)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent

My Questions

  1. What exactly does the P0011 code mean? Is my timing off? I thought I read somewhere a bad mechanical adjuster throws the code P0021 (the other camshaft). Is this code pointing to a failed adjuster or something else in the timing, or someting else entirely? Why isn’t my CEL coming on?

  2. Any ideas on the vibration? It is wheelspeed dependent, not RPM. Would the driveshaft carrier bearing cause this? Shop said brakes, shields, etc looked good. They don’t know.

  3. Is the coolant sensor issue causing any of the issues, maybe the idle issue?

  4. Any other diagnostic work I can try?

  5. I plan on pulling the engine in the spring to do the timing service. Unless I start getting a misfire or severe chain rattle, then I will do it then.

Thanks for reading, hopefully a few of you have the patience to pick through this mess. If the mods want I can split this up.

  • badger
#2

Welcome to the site your in the right place for help.

The vibration. Did you say you knew the wheels were out of shape. If you have a wheel that is out of round it will vibrate. Try putting on the other rims you had and see if that fixes it. Or try rotating the tires and see if that effects it.

The number 2 could be related to number 1 issue. If you put the car up to rotate the tires try putting the car into gear and seeing of you can here the noise if the car off the ground and the wheels free spinning.

If I read what you said properly. That’s your traction control activating and cutting power. You see it flash if it’s activating

The idle can be from the cam code or it can be from a slight leak in the vac system or even pcv system. One other thing to check is stuff like fuel filter plugs and coil packs.

#3

1st visit to tire shop: had 2 tires that were slightly misformed/out of round from the manufacturer.
2nd visit to tire shop: replaced all 4 tires with brand new (assuming all 4 new tires are OK and “round”). Shop mentioned that 2 wheels had a slight “wobble” and perhaps were minutely bent.
3rd visit to tire shop: Replaced all 4 wheels. Same tires from visit #2 were put on new wheels.

So at this point I have replaced all 4 tires and all 4 wheels, hence I was assuming the wheels/tires are NOT to blame since I still have the vibration. However it seems worse immediately following a rotation, so I am now thinking I may have a bum tire again and just have shitty luck with tires. But I don’t know.

I will try putting the car up and running while in the air. Will need to get a couple more jack stands first though!

The traction light not flashing like when slipping. It comes on and stays on, sometimes for a few minutes and sometimes for the remainder of the trip. Other times, it is on immediately when starting the car and goes off after 2-3 minutes of driving.

I actually changed the fuel filter this year, forgot to mention that. The coil packs were reaplced way back at like 60k by PO. It’s strange because I din’t have any hesitation or anythng while on throttle or coasting, once moving. I do plan on replacing the PCV valve in the spring, since my oil consumption is edging updwards ever so slightly.

Thanks for the response!!

#4

I would try to put back on the one set of rims or rotate to see if anything changes. If you have a bent rim that can effect the tire over time. The traction light might be part of explaining why you have an idle issue. Sometimes if you get a bad maf signal you will get a traction light as the traction system needs a signal from the maf.

As for the codes. Clear them all check to see if any come right back and after a few days see what codes might have come back. That will help tell more.

#5

You came prepared to the right place. Welcome and let me try to answer your questions.

What are your channel 32 measuring value block readings? I ask here first before you read my response to your first question because if you clear the codes then the readings reset to zero.

  1. Usually that code is caused by a bad mechanical camshaft adjuster. The ECU needs to see that code a certain number of times to throw a check engine light.

There is a way to test the camshaft adjusters with the stock tune. To do it you need to get the engine warmed up (at least 80 degrees C), park somewhere but leave the engine running, hook up the vagcom, go into 01-engine electronics, clear the fault codes, go into basic settings, go to channel 94. click the button in the middle of the top of the screen to turn the basic settings on, push on the brake pedal with your left foot and hold it, floor the gas pedal with your right foot and hold it, the engine rpms should raise to around 2K rpms, wait until the third and fourth values show a result. It should say something abbreviated like OK or Not Ok. If it shows Not Ok then you know that a camshaft adjuster is bad.

  1. To me it sounds like your driveshaft is causing the vibrations. You have thrown everything else and the kitchen sink at it so you are running out of options.

Just to be sure take a bucket, fill about 3/4 of the way full with water, put it on the passenger front floorboard so that you can see it, and then drive the car to see how the water ripples while you feel the vibration. If it ripples slowly then your driveshaft is definitely bad. Don’t overfill the bucket or water will splash all over the place.

Also the driveshaft could be causing the noise too but I would be more worried about the vibration.

  1. It is not likely that the engine coolant temp sensor is causing the intermittent idle issue. The engine coolant temp sensors on these cars are the older green four pin type sensor. They are two sensors built into one with one signal going to the engine control module and the other going to the instrument cluster. It is common for only one side of the sensor to fail at a time and it appears that the instrument cluster side has failed on your car. It is not a fun job to replace the engine coolant temp sensor on these cars but they don’t fail nearly as often as the older 2.7Ts since they don’t get covered in engine oil.

I replace the engine coolant temp sensor from the bottom. First you want to drain the coolant through the drain plug on the thermostat housing. Next you remove the heat shield over the front right inner CV joint. The sensor is on the rear hard metal coolant line towards the passenger side of the car. It is tight to the cowl wall and is kind of a pain in the ass plus I tend to get coolant in the face when replacing one.

  1. Usually a random traction control light going on and then turning off (NOT flashing) with these cars is caused by a MAF or vacuum leak. Especially with an automatic car because the load signal is very important to how the transmission responds. This is where your channel 32 measuring value block readings are important. How dirty is your engine air filter? Double check if your MAF boot is on tight, especially where it connects to the throttle body.

Did you put locktite on the intake manifold bolts when you installed the intake manifold spacers? I use blue locktite so that the bolts don’t back out. It wouldn’t hurt to double check that the bolts are tightened to 11 Nm. Start in the middle then crisscross your way towards the outside corners.

Just wondering, did you make sure that all the fuel injector pintle caps were on correctly when you pulled the intake manifold?

A throttle body adaption couldn’t hurt either. I do it through basic settings channel 60 with the key on but engine not running.

  1. I will be posting up a DIY for changing out the timing chain components and a bunch of other things in a bit once I finish up Slow4’s car.
#6

Thank you JimmyBones for the detailed response!! To address what questions I can:

Initial Question: Channel 32 measuring value block readingsI don’t know. I don’t have the VCDS (the codes I listed are from what the shop gave me, it was the first time codes were pulled/been in an Audi-specific shop for anything since I got the car). I am looking through the handout they gave me but don’t see anything mentioning a channel 32. I can post a scan of the handout pages later tonight if you want.

  1. That test sounds like something I should defintely do and am able to do since I am still on the stock tune. I am not sure when I will be able to get the the shop with the VCDS again but I will make a point to try to get there soon, or convince the wife to let me buy one from ross-tech.

  2. Can you explain the water ripples in more detail perhaps? I can try this, not sure how I will know if they ripple “slowly” or otherwise. Maybe I will take a video.

  3. I did buy a coolant temp sensor already but haven’t tackled the change… I will probably do it when the motor is out in the spring instead of fighting the tight access. Good to know it is probably not the cause of the idle issue.

  4. Engine air filter was replaced in the spring but I have not checked it since then. Will put it on the list! IM bolts were done with blue loctite but that is easy enough to verify if still at correct 11Nm.

  5. Pintle caps all looked good. And I have done the TB adaptation with the key on, accelerator dow etc procedure, is that the same thing as through the channel 60 you mention?

I will be looking for that timing DIY for sure. I’m no mechanic but I think I can tackle it myself, but any guides/DIYs will be immensely helpful. I already have the engine pull DIY from Joey saved and a few other threads I’ve bookmarked with other details, but don’t think I’ve seen a comprehensive timing DIY.

Thanks again for the very detailed reply.

#7

Doing what Jimmy said for the vibration is a good idea.

As for the rest I would really suggest getting a Ross tech cable. That makes getting the other issues easier to help you solve. It’s important to see what codes if any come back.

#8

Brief Update:
Had this tested at the shop, they said it checked out as OK. So here’s hoping my camshaft adjuster is still OK.

#9

You should almost always get a code if the adjuster is bad