I know we are anxious about extracting the most out of our cars. The power obviously is restricted from factory. I think it’d be a great idea to have a post strictly dedicated to dyno proven mods for example before and after on the C6 S6 platform. We know in theory that the mods that worked for the little brother of the car should produce similar results but it’d be nice to see the actual results.
Headers + Exhaust
Headers
JHM Spacers
Intake Mods
Carbon Cleaning
Tuning
The info for this car is missing and now that the car has dropped in price and is more “affordable” (We all know the car is expensive to maintain) I feel as though more mods will be coming. So unless it’s dyno proven, it shouldn’t be included in this thread.
Back in the day for example there was a company claiming numbers had supposedly performed dyno testing and their products actually yielded less power than said.
I just like to see numbers for example
If i add this… the potential gain of power is this…proven by before and after Dyno number, intake temperature monitoring. Now that i don’t believe JHM one of the most reputable tuners for the car. Just I believe in the “trust, but verify” mentality.
You should really read up on the flaws of a dyno. No one here will disagree with you that they have their place, but a dyno chart truly means nothing without acceleration data.
While i understand the “issues” or inaccuracy of a dyno… any proven factors are welcomed. the post isn’t really to aim at simply just being “dyno proven” contrary to the title but to provide the proven factor behind the mod. As said previously, intake temperatures and other various data that can yield some type of prove factor to the install.
yeah, this site doesn’t much cater to the dyno, so that may be the reason for the pushback.
most members here want their power mods to add acceleration, not dyno power (not that those are mutually exclusive but it’s really hard to fake acceleration and really easy to fake dyno power)
As for what is ‘proven’ (however you prove it) we haven’t really seen much testing at all. So far, JHM has stepped in and written a 5.2 tune, and have made a couple sets of headers and a catback exhaust on a couple of prototype cars, but not a lot of testing has been shared.
As for the list of stuff they’re making or will make, we have to expect good things from them as their formula for power on a number of other naturally aspirated Audis has been by far the most succesful
A6 4.2
B6 A4 3.0
B67 S4 4.2
B7 RS4 4.2
B8 S5 4.2
So either they’ve forgotten how to do it, or the same results will carry over. We just haven’t seen them yet on the big V10 cars. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened though…just that they’re not yet ready to share
blackS6 It looks like I might be late to the party but I wanted to put this and a few thoughts out there for everyone in the V10 land to read and to really hold on to.
To take this a step further. I want to add a few things. One of the fastest growing platforms is the B8 S4. The B8 S4 guys have fully rejected the dyno results all together and its paid off tramendiously. A few quick examples. One coompany made the claim that they made 500whp on a B8 S4 but when they took the disaster of a car to the track it barly ran in the 12s when almost all stage 1 cars making 200whp less were faster than that. The same company keeps trying to sell tunes to the B8 guys but they wont go to the track and because of it no one will buy there tunes. And no one should buy there tunes according to the dyno APR should be slowest with the B8 S4 but its not.
Each dyno reads different and you have no real proof. As the V10 gains speed because guys like you and the others are excited there will be someone trying to sell snake oil off a dyno sheet. You always want to reject the dyno sheet and ask for the acceleraton sheet that you can get from the track.
The one platform that has used the dyno sheet as king. The B5 S4 the one platform what has only gotten SLOWER each year since the track proven companys have left. The dyno shets keep reading more but the B5 just keeps getting slower and slower. To the point where one B5 Looser put a 2.7t into a B6 S4 he claimed 600whp. When that looser went to the track with his 2.7t powered car he ran 14.6 or something like that. Basically slower then the slowest stock B6 4.2 s4 ever.
Having worked as a tech at a couple different shops with an AWD mustang dyno in house I can certainly appreciated dyno results.
I absolutely don’t think you should ignore dyno results.
YES, all dyno’s will read different. There was another local shop that had hugely inflated dyno numbers which seemed to help their business and tunes appear to be ‘superior’. However many of their “400+ WHP” cars would put up slower times than cars we tuned at “only” 325whp.
Dynos are a tuning tool. By saying dyno proven results, I would trust before/after dyno results of different mods/upgrades given they were done on the same dyno, same temperature etc etc. They’re a tuning tool, and only as accurate as you want them to be. If I throw my car on the dyno and put out X horsepower, then throw on an exhaust and retune and put it back on the same dyno and put out 120% of X horsepower… that’s a very significant gain, and imo proof of a worthwhile modification.
Don’t get caught up in the dyno numbers, pay attention to the differences.
Agreed on using the Dyno as a tool especially to compare gains from stock to mods. Problem is I usually don’t see people getting a baseline then once they add a few mods then claim to be making a gazzilion HP on an optimistic dyno. One of the reasons I built my 2.75 x pipe exhaust on my former s6 was because fabspeed showed gains of 27 whp and 37 wtq with only that mod.
With that said I would love to see some before and after Dynos on the c6 s6! Back when I was researching mods the only guy who was really dynoing his car was dirtyvegastt on Audiworld. I think his final numbers were 342 whp and 338 wtq which was with the suboptimal miltek, msds filters, apr tune and carbon clean…
Before the carbon clean and tune his car made something like 292 whp with exhaust and filters. It’s hard to say what the car would have done with a proper carbon and only intake and exhaust but I would have to guess in the 310-315 whp range. I think I remember reading that with the apr tuneit made 25 more whp and pulled better up top.
Not sure if v8a6 is planning to Dyno his car or the other chap with the jhm exhaust and tune, but I would be interested to see the results. I always thought that this car with a proper header, exhaust, filters, and tune could yield 380+ whp
The other problem with a dyno is it still doesn’t mean the car will accelerate if the tuner doesn’t know what they’re doing.
Apr found this out when they put a supercharger on an rs4 5 years ago, and then dynod it. The car made about 100 whp over stock. Great! So they sold it to the masses as such.
Someone in Michigan bought one and took it to the dragstrip. High 12s at 107-108 (the stock rs4 record at the time was 12.8@107…it is now 12.75@108.3).
Oops
But it was dyno proven? Same day, same dyno, same conditions and an honest company. What gives?
Well thay owner in detroit knows someone who tunes for JHM. He told him about the results and the jhm tuner didn’t believe it possible Apr would screw people so he had a look at the tune.
He saw a few problems and wrote a new tune. They took the car to the strip and jhm’s tuner drove it on apr’s tune first. High 12s at 108.
He then loaded his own tune in the pits. 12.1@116. A couple more changes over the coming weeks and 11.8@118 was run.
He told Apr and they didn’t believe it. So he let them see the file. They argued about it internally for a while the suddenly went to the dragstrip and ran 11.8@116-117. They asked the jhm tuner what he wanted and he said he was just happy to help and wanted credit to him and jhm.
Keith@apr posted a news release thread about the result for the whole world to see thanking and crediting the jhm tuner for the new calibration. They recanted the part about jhm shortly after (well, arin and Steven did to save Apr the shame and embarrassment) but unfortunately for them the story was published everywhere, and we even had photos on this site of the night the tuner went to the track lol. Nice try Apr.
Bottom line though is that the car made power on the dyno but the driving dynamics in the tune were so whack thay the car didn’t accelerate very well.
Moral of the story is the dyno is not something to be used to sell anything to us. It should be used behind the scenes, not in advertising. We are buying ACCELERATION, not dyno sheets. Show us that your product makes our car accelerate faster and we will get excited. Show us that it makes a better dyno number and you’ve proven nothing where it counts.
Very true. Real world performance is all that should matter, believing that your car is fast because of a dyno sheet is sometimes humbling when actually you end up racing it.
I will say this though, it is really hard to make a perfect pass in drag racing. So many factors come into play on each pass, some being out of your control, that can be the difference between making your best run, and just making an average run. Im sure you could make a better pass with my car than I can at this point, a better driver in the same exact car can be tenths in difference.
To your story, I think your point is bang on, a lot of people get swept up in the power debate and care more about dyno sheets than they do about time slips or real world performance because it is somewhat of a ego thing for people to be able to say " I have 500 whp". For every one real car guy that knows that there is more to performance than just hp numbers, there are 9 that don’t. Im not saying that there is no correlation, but my buddies B8S4 with 370 awhp ran better times than the 700 hp Hellcat at the strip, and all the local rednecks were in shock (both were in the low 12’s).
I think the dyno sheet caters to people who want to believe they are making their cars faster, and rarely will pursue any avenue to verify this. A few of us here on AR know a local guy with a 1.8t who is adamant he can keep up with our S4 at the track, he ran his mouth all year, and he legit thinks his car will make 260 whp and run mid 13’s… but he won’t take it to the track or the dyno. We often joke about it with him “1.8t’s never lose because they never race”… anyway, I feel like there are a lot of people like him out there in the car communities and especially on forums.They buy expensive parts that have dyno sheets pushing sales and will always tell you that their car makes XXX hp or should run a xx.x@ xx MPH but will never actually find out. In some cases ignorance is not just bliss, it is a belief so engrained in their identity that they couldn’t handle finding out that their 250 whp is actually a 170 whp and that mid 13’s are actually more like low 15’s.
For some people, I think its easier to drive onto the rollers and chase a big number rather than face the embarrassment of making a bad run and looking like a bad driver. A local friend of mine with a supra that made 500 whp on the dyno ran a 15, then a 14.5(with slicks) then he spun off the track on his third pass, and everyone on our local forums gave him shit saying he doesn’t know how to drive. Before that track day, when everyone saw "supra " and “500 whp” everyone just assumed he would decimate them in a race.
At the end of the day what does it mean someone says " I have 500 hp"…? it doesn’t mean your’e going to beat someone with a 230 hp K series swapped EG :lol:
We the customers aren’t the ones who need to show a perfect pass. The tuners do. In fact they just need to show a very good pass. The gap between perfect and very good is minor, and is primarily et based. The trap speeds however will show up pretty well no matter what unless you fuck the pass up badly.
If you’re a tuner and are in the fast car business, and you can’t find any of your employees, friends or anyone who can launch and then change 3 gears you need to get the fuck out of the business lol. These are awd audis. You don’t need to feather the gas. You don’t need to worry about eating the wall. You don’t need to worry too much about traction. A horrendous 60’ for our cars is 1.95. That’s not destroying anyone’s mph.
This in full effect. Also contract_thrilla made a great post so true. Its normal for guys to want to think the dyno will be a great way to show and help give results. But a dyno sheet dosent really tell you anything espically when your end goal is to have a faster car. No body other then maybe b5 guys have ever said. I dont want to be faster I just want to have a higher hp output on a dyno sheet but I dont want the car to be faster.
Just like in the B6 B7 B8 and B8.5 S4 the best results will come from holding the companys accountable that want to sell you something. The V10 guys are selling themselves short by not asking for acceleration results. After all you dont want a company that is going to just make a product and not test it or back it up. this is what opens the door for companys like PES and VF that made superchargers that made the cars no faster as they used a blower too small to actually put out more air then the motor took in. There have been big issuess with the show a dyno sheet and the car is not much faster then stock or a car with exhaust and other simple mods
The truth is most of the companies can’t test at the track because they don’t own the cars they sell parts for. They own 15 year old cars or domestic trucks or JDM cars…but rarely does a tuning company in the Audi forums actually own the S4/RS4/S5/S6/S8/RS7 they are making products for.
This is a problem for two reasons:
this means they’re actually testing fuck all. They might ask a customer to come in and test fit something to their car for a few days, or practice tuning on their car while it’s on their dyno, but that’s hardly ideal is it? lol. Companies like JHM and AMS go buy the cars, and then put 10s of thousands of miles on products before we even know they exist. By the time they’re sold to us, they’re properly proven. Interesting these are the only two companies in the Audi tuning game who scoff at dyno-only marketing and who both rely heavily on the 1/4 mile at standardized certified dragstrips to prove their products.
they may be able to convince a customer to lend them their car for a few runs on the dyno, but they are hard pressed to say 'hey can we borrow your car for a month, do some development, test fit and install parts, and then drive 2 hrs away to a dragstrip so we can go full on to make a dragstrip pass and hopefully not break anything in the process?
Some might use #2 as a good excuse for these companies…‘how can they test on the strip without a car’. That makes me laugh. Why the fuck don’t they have one of the cars? These are primarily 5-7 year old Audis that were $50,000 new and $15,000 - $25,000 today. If the owner of a business can’t afford a B7 RS4, or a 5.2 S6/S8 to use for R&D it makes you wonder…are they doing ANY real R&D? Or are they changing a couple of parameters (throttle, timing, AFR, boost where applicable) and sending you on your way with a bill for $1500? For what?
With all this talk about data proven mods, anybody have anything to show here? I thought we would be hearing more from the folks with their shiney new full 3 inch exhausts and ecu/tcu tunes perhaps they are out enjoying the car rather than posting here
I really want to jump back into a v10, but honestly it depends how well received these mods are. A pre owned c7 s6 is looking tempting with a few going for 45k and under. Show me some data so I don’t go that route
vtgt, when my car is back from the shop, tuned, and running tip top, I have no problem arranging to take it to a local awd dyno, if you are willing to foot the bill. There is a place called Neetronics about 45min from me, that I have used before. I would guess my car will be ready to go within the next 30-60 days. Ill let you know when Im ready, and you can arrange to make payment directly to them, if that works with you.
That being said, I question the dyno results being the prime factor in a $45k car purchase. It really will only tell a small portion of the picture. The v10 car with headers is going to be a totally different animal than a turbo’d C7. The instant throttle response, lack of ANY turbo lag, and the lambo-like exhaust sound are all part of a very unique and viscerally raw experience youll get from a modded v10 S6. If the dyno reads 350 peak hp at the wheels or if it reads 380 or 400, is that really going to make you change your mind on which car to buy?
There are other factors… the price, for one. $45k for a C7 is a far cry from a modded v10 S6. Even if you go all out on the v10 car, you are probably looking at about $35k max.
Next, do you like to mod, or keep the car stock? That $45k could easily turn into $60k if you go all out. Would be fast as hell though, if you did it right.
Depreciation…v10s have pretty much hit rock bottom at this point. The C7 still has a far way to go.
In any case, dont get so hung up on the dyno. Buy what feels right and have some fun with it, whatever you decide.
V8a6, like you I do not care for the dyno numbers much at all. I am just (very) anxious to see reviews and feedback on said mods :). I know the experience will be much different, but I want to know what the realistic potential is on the v10. Again I loved my former c6 s6, buy i did have a few gripes which i am hoping are remedied buy some of the things you are doing. Thanks for helping to pioneer a quality headerback exhaust, etc. Looking fwd to more feedback!
