And…
,i like the mp112nice low end torque we got the car to 443 awtorque and 486 awhp but we are at the end of the blower capabilitys ,im shooting for 500plus awhp thats why we want to go with a wipple with more top end power
PES Supporter Timeline
I’M RIGHT!!! —> I’M MOSTLY RIGHT! --> you guys make good points --> Fuck this kit, I’m moving on :’(
pretty incredible huh?
Every time someone does this, a small part of me hopes that they’ll get good results.
They’ve spent so much money and their mindset is that it’ll be amazing. I always feel really bad that they’re going to be disappointed and filled with regret in the end. You could tell by his exhaust video how excited he was about his car based on how he was running around in it lol.
I personally can’t fathom spending over 10k expecting a certain result and not getting it in the end.
But considering he’s already off getting a new setup I guess his financial situation is better off, so I don’t feel as bad this time.
Edit: I really gotta stop feeling so bad for total strangers on the interwebz 
Edit 2: and based on his replies to the thread I guess he doesn’t have any regret at all so it’s not too bad.
yes, I can’t either.
I’ve told this story a hundred times, but I was trying pretty hard to be one of the beta cars for the VF Engineering kit back in 2008. I had spoken to them a bunch of times about it, but expressed concern that all they had to ‘prove’ the results was a piece of paper…a dyno…done at a VF friendly dyno. Kind of useless as ‘proof’ goes, if you ask me.
I asked them for timeslips. They gave me a myriad of excuses, and urged me that I would love the kit and to just send them the discounted money. The excuses were, in order
- “we only have a really shitty track near us at elevation” (I said drive to California…you’re selling a $10,000 kit. Make an effort)
- “our first beta car is a heavy avant though” (I said 'no problem. Avants only weigh 150 lbs more than sedans…so we’ll take 1.5 tenths off his time and add an MPH to compensate and get an idea what a sedan would do)
- “our beta car guy has 20” wheels and a 150 lb stereo system though" (I said ‘remove the sub box and put the car on a lift and put stock wheels on…that will take all of 1 hr’)
- “our beta car guy’s clutch isn’t that strong” (I said 'no problem…don’t launch it hard, just take off as I’m sure he does from stop lights and on ramp lights every day of the week. No need to blaze the tires or be a hero)
- “the stock clutch can’t hold all of the power, so we’re going to need a clutch upgrade” (I said 'I will wait")
- “the clutch install is delayed” (I said 'I’m still patient)
- “(crickets)”
Once they installed the clutch, we never heard from them again. EVER. I shit you not. It’s not like they ignored the topic or something…THEY FUCKING VANISHED AND NEVER POSTED AGAIN!
It was surreal. The silence was deafening. I later learned they did go to the track and ran high 12s @ 107-108 a bunch of times. Their guerrilla marketing campaign of paying ngng to con people into thinking the kit was better than it was worked well, and they got about half a dozen forum guys on the hook for their $10,000.
Thanks to justincredible, beemercer, 91GL, chrisk jfunkey and a whole slew of other 2008-2009 OG 4.2 guys, I just stayed vigilant in my demand for information during the excuses and didn’t fall for it. THANK YOU GUYS!
I like how people are congratulating him for his dyno numbers like it is somehow an achievement lol
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Those PES kits always dyno well…its the performance where they are challenged
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Do we really care what the tuner’s in house dyno says…really?
Opens the door for a whole bunch of guys who will start buying PES m112 kits now thinking they are getting 480 whp…only to run 12.30 or something… slower than the JHM all motor cars. I would pay $10 for this guy to hit the strip with the PES m112 kit on there.
I have a strong feeling he ran the car at the track to surprise us without announcing it and realized how much it underperformed, got embarrassed and felt the need to get more power. My bets are the car is listed on autotrader/ craigslist in a month or two. Makes no sense to throw tens of thousands at it or to me at least.
I tried warning him about it over there at AZ and he responded saying he did his research…UHHHHHHH yeah great research there pal
On a side note: does anyone have any clue or hypothesis as to why we see these PES and VF kits dyno so high but perform MUCH worse than shown. Prime example being JHM s4 full bolt on vs ngng’s failcar. My only guess is there has to be some sort of error in the dyno calculation that is being overlooked. I cant put a finger to specifically what it is though…it just baffles me how they can perform so well on the dyno and then shit at the track or head to head pulls…
Isn’t there a similar thing with carbon buildup? Notable difference on the dyno, not much IRL?
I wanted to dyno my car post clean just to get an idea but I don’t want to spend $80 bucks just for that.
Maybe we can convince Claudio to set up another dyno day lol.
Yeah very similar unless your buildup was choking you of course. But with fifteen thousand miles UT will show up on the dyno, but as you showed with
My money says that on the dyno, you have gigantic fans cooling the air-to-water heat exchanger, and you only run through one gear. The system’s downfall is its cooling as much as its undersized blower. In the real world, when you don’t have the equivalent of 100mph worth of air moving across it at all times, and/or when your air conditioner is or has been on a lot (adding heat to the condenser, radiator, and s/c HX), the intake air is much hotter than it was on the dyno.
I would actually really like to see more on the MP112, specifically in regards to the S4, not RS4. It’s probably just big enough to push a stock S4 engine near its limit, and do so with a budget cost. And I would guess that it would be relatively easy to convert a VF/PES/other MP90 kit, so that would make the manifold easy, though the belt drive would still need some work. I still think one should cough up a little extra dough for a twin screw. The MP112 vs any decent twin screw would be like buying a turbo kit for $8k+ and getting a standard center section instead of splurging the $500-$1k for a nice dual ball bearing turbo(s). Why bother at that point? If $8k is really every penny you can spend, then why are you spending all your pennies modifying your car? Hobbies and toys are for when you have play money; you’re not supposed to literally have near zero balance at the bank after you’re about 22 years old.
But what about in the winter when the weather is cold? Or the kits with intercoolers? I dont think its that otherwise I think every supercharger across all car platforms would show the same performance. I think there has to be something wrong with the calculation of the dyno but I dont know enough about dynos to pinpoint anything.
I would agree with the twin screw concept, though it seems centripetal would be more geared for max power, more or less like a turbo kit from what Ive read about it since it increases power as the engine speeds up
Regarding the heat, and I’m only speaking in theory, with the meth/water injection…heatsoak should be a moot point. With a properly set-up meth kit, intake temps are reduced significantly…and the meth/water acts as a higher octane fuel, so even if the fluid in the heat exchanger was very hot it shouldn’t have adverse consequences when the meth/water is being sprayed.
Now, this is with a PROPERLY tuned and executed meth/water injection kit. Many folks say they had meth/water and it didn’t really do anything, it could have been set up incorrectly (coming on too slow or too fast or not enough) or the tuning was not done properly to take advantage of the increased octane or intake temps. Meth injection can do more harm than good if not done right, but when done right it is unbelieveable for it’s purpose. My past meth injected magnacharged Z06 had no heatsoak - as strong on the last lap of a 20 minute roadcourse session as it was on the first. I had the same experience with a track-prepped STI, and that intercooler was WAAAAY out of it’s comfort zone on the roadcourse.
Based on the dyno numbers, I think our guy did a good job in relation to performance. The power gain is in line to what that blower does in many applications, I don’t understand why anyone would expect more.
I do hope our friend does some pulls/logs so we can see what it all means on the “road”, but I really don’t care…I’ve not a dog in this fight, but just so the douchebags can settle down and STFU.
Be good,
TomK
http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/fingers-in-ears.jpg
shut up, don’t tell me what to do
[quote]I would actually really like to see more on the MP112, specifically in regards to the S4, not RS4. It’s probably just big enough to push a stock S4 engine near its limit, and do so with a budget cost. And I would guess that it would be relatively easy to convert a VF/PES/other MP90 kit, so that would make the manifold easy, though the belt drive would still need some work.
[/quote]
what’s the point
the cost should be prohibitive…the packaging above the motor would still reveal the tiny cooling setup for what it is…a huge limitation…and then you would have to tune it
or…you could give jhm $9,000 and get it right.
here is the deal. The VF PEFAIL or PESucks. Thing is simpole. heat heat heat. The blower sits ontop of the heads that get to over 300deg. The blower itself generates a large amount of heat. VF tried to put a m112 on the S4 kit to try and make more power… it failed just as bad… why. HEAT.
None NONE of these companys less maybe jhm and TTS maybe. understand heat heat heat. methonal is a joke when trying to manage heat like this. the more power your pushing in boost the more expenditial heat that is generated.
when you look at the intercooler for a M112 03 cobra. its 300% the size of the VF and PES one.
why do they do well on the dyno and not in real llife… Simple. Heat. when your on the dyno you can have the blower stone cold and thats what these guys do. notice how no one on the dyno shows passes but pass. one pull and they get hot on the dyno. If they would do 2 or 3 more pulls the hp wopuld drop therw the floor.
Lol!
Chris,
Methanol is not a joke, and when used correctly will outperform any air/air or air/water intercooler. I am not aware of any intercooler that can bring IATs to below ambient- I am aware of well-installed, well-executed, well-tuned meth-injection kits that have done just that. I had a big V8 with a blower sitting on top and a methanol kit. It suffered no heat loss at all even over extended periods of violent use.
The application can, and has, worked well many times before.
Be good,
TomK
There’s a new guy on the AZ thread patting this guy on the back telling everyone the quarter mile doesn’t matter and congratulating him for his dyno…then another guy saying this car wasnt made for the quarter mile
It is a never ending conveyer belt assembly line production of soft in the head pussies on that site.
So you had no other cooling other than meth? Or if you did have cooling it was undersized, iiiiiinefficientficientficientficientficientficiently designed and did very little? And the blower you used was being overworked, blasting furnace like hot air into your motor? And meth solved everything?
How about I guarantee right now that this is not the case without even hearing the answer.
Nobody cars about your old car…we are talking about the RS4 and the PES kit
The post you quoted and disputed was verY clear and referred to Mmmrs4, not some random V8 car some random guy (you) used to own. Look at the part of Chrisk’s post you bolded lol. HEAT LIKE THIS.
Hey, that must be me, the new soft in the head pussy on that site. Nice to make your acquaintance, Saki. Better to pat the guy on the back for actually doing something with the RS4 than bash his work and look like a douchebag putting down what he’s done, no? And when his numbers are respectable, and in line with a properly installed/tuned MP112, you still look for anything to continue your bashing???..poor taste, brother.
Yes, Saki, I had a heat exchanger, too. https://www.magnacharger.com/p-40-corvette-z06-57l-ls6-2001-2004-magnuson-supercharger-kit.aspx
It was an MP112 running on a 5.7liter motor at 6700rpm…and I pulley’d it to 9lbs of boost.
And it heatsoaked just like most air/water heat exchangers do on the roadcourse. The methanol solved everything…it works better than any other form of intercooling available.
There’s a reason why many forced induction cars are switching over to E85, too. The RS4 application is not some voodoo motor, put in boost and fuel and cool it properly (there’s the key here, brother) and it will make repeatable power. Some are beating on the thread based on their past failed experiences, I’ll bet most of that is from improper tuning or set-up. I’ve run two blown cars with meth injection on the track and have had nothing but phenomenal results with heat-soak management. Twenty minute HPDE sessions, and the resultant heat-soak issues, are a little different than a 11-12 second run on a strip, no?
But enought about me, the random new soft in the head pussy writing about some random V8 car - I’m sure everyone would like to hear specifics about YOUR direct RS4 MP112 history. Please tell us YOUR direct experience with blown cars and methanol/water injection, and while we’re at it please tell us YOUR experience actually running a car with a MP112 blower, on track or strip? I’m sure everyone would love to curl up with the bag of popcorn and be enlightened with YOUR past/current experiences with ANY car that was blown and meth’d, be it the voodoo RS4 or other. Please???
