Trade pricing
How long ago were they using black? I have only ever seen pictures of tan and blue.
At work, we will list allowable material substitutions on our spec drawings which would all carry the same p/n and rev level
Let me look over the pictures I have an check the intake manifold dates from the past few installs Ive helped with here local.
Both my M version intakes were tan. The few C versions I have seen were black. I have only seen the blue on the very recent versions. What’s odd is that paul got his intake before me and it was blue, mine was tan and now others are getting the blue again.
The original “C” version on my 07 S6 had tan flaps and had a date of Sept 20, 2006 on the id label
Hey Justin
Appreciate your feedback. My comments:
1: In my car the variable length flap shafts have some ‘gum’ on them (either it being deposits or reacted plastic compound), which makes them move difficult in the mounts. The mounts are all totally fine. Also on the flaps themselves there are these gunky deposits, and also on the seating areas on the metal is a nice layer of waxy oil vapor deposits. This makes them slide with more difficulty. I think that combined with the brittleness this causes them to sheer.
2: I have not studied the cam timing maps yet but from the technical docs on the BSM engine there should be internal EGR. It would be nice if there is already no overlap in the factory tune. I’m not sure what car fax reports are, but here in the Netherlands, the dealers are not able to tell me what kind of engine management updates have been given to my car.
3: I think you are misunderstanding what I meant there. This is not PCV related. The back flow would be back flow of exhaust gasses through the inlet valves because of possible valve overlap due to internal EGR.
4: There are people reporting early signs of deposits just after a few minutes of hot engine operation. Myself being one of them! Kind of a pain in the ass if you’ve just gone through the effort to cleaning everything and seeing it already starts to come back.
5: We remove PCV all the time from racing engines (also modern ones), and albeit difficult to measure due to the pulsed nature, the pressure in the crankcase with properly gapped rings and reasonable venting facilities is in the milibar range. Personally we have never been able to measure performance gains/losses from running an engine with or without slight crankcase vacuum. If gaskets start to leak because you remove the crank vacuum, the gaskets were to be replaced anyways because you are not supposed to suck in outside air via gaskets.
6: I’ve not seen properly executed PCV deletes on our engines, nor properly documented ones where it harmed head gaskets?? I also can’t quite comprehend how a head gasket should be affected by PCV or vent to air.
About your last remark, I didnt mention more oil would be burned, I said that the vented fumes would contain a larger amount of oil particles. These would be vented to air so would find no way to the inside of exhaust system/cats/O2 sensors.
If all, removing PCV and venting it to air AIDS in preventing that from happening.
Another plus is that you will notice less detonation because oil vapors severely lower octane number of the charge in the cilinder. This is why it is removed from race engines as standard, these are tuned to make the most of the fuel’s octane number and would continuously pull timing due to knock issues with the oil vapor in the air charge.
ps. my cyclonic separator/PCV valve is brand new OEM, and compression/ring seal is top notch, so it is not because of that.
Sounds like there is pretty big demand for an aftermarket solution . Any takers on one that is less than msrp from Audi, what’s he best price out there?
Otherwise just call it an expensive maint item and replace every 50-70k.
Im respoding to your entire post but felt it would be cleaner to just use this text.
To simplify my answer. Your idea of removing the PCV and reduceing or eliminate the oil separator are removing the parts that are there to solve the issue your trying to solve by removing them.
A properly working PCV and oil separator system already do all the things your trying to do. Again keep this in mind. When the carbon is cleaned and the PCV system and oil separator is cleaned and working properly you have to check for carbon build up or muck build up what. Every 40 or 50k realistically its much longer as you see cars with 100k and the carbon build up isnt that bad. These intakes are breaking after 80 or more thousand miles or almost 10 years of use isnt exactly a great reason to fall into panic and pull the PCV system off.
Again removal of the PCV system is more down side than up side. You want to see how your car will run without the PCV system. Simple… try this. Go pull off your oil cap. Thats a quick simple way to bypass your PCV system… now see how your car runs… like crap
30 years ago race teams used to pull off the PCV systems now they DONT pull them off they use EXACTLY what we have on our cars and thats an oil separator and a strong PCV system. The current Audi DTM team has our style PCV set up… Some race teams have a similar style but with a dry sump they might use alternitive methods but they all seem to include a PCV of some sort. Some teams actually run a crankcase vaccum pump to pull even more crank case pressure out. Now if you build a race motor or have a motor that dosent need negitive crank case pressure then go for it. On the 5.2 you want the negative crank case environment as its better for the gaskets. Negitive crank case pressure helps things like the valve cover gaskets and other gaskets seal properly and maintain a good tight seal.
I dont want you to think Im trying to rain on your parade. You seem quite set on taking out the PCV system. and while I think its a terrible idea as In both theory and practice its shown to not work and it rittled with flaws. I just want to make sure to state what we have found out over the years and add some counter thoughts that should be takin into consideration. Several of your assumptions are false or incomplete of possible full perspective.
IMHO if you want to reduce the oil in the intake track. Concentrate on the oil separation system and how to make that better or more efficent. Some RS4 guys have put another oil separator in line with mixed results.
another thing to consider that checks off lots of boxes to keep the intake clean and the valves clean if your worried about it. Take the time and work on a methonal injection system to spray just before the throttle bodys. This is how audi solved this issue on the newer cars. Audi has secondairy injectors that spray before the intake that turn on at crusing speeds.
Your intake manifold looked like it was a reman from the pictures you posted. Do you think that reman versions could be tan and new new ones are blue
Justin, the reason it runs like crap when you take off the oil filler cap is because you are then sucking in unmetered air.
Separator will stay, crankcase venting will no longer be positive and the vented gasses will no longer go into intake charge.
Furthermore we have never experienced any power output changes in between to-air and the mild vacuum of pcv. This is not a drag racing engine where half a percent of gains on the total power output is 30hp.
The only reason pcv exists is because of worldwide emissions laws.
WOW … Do you honestly believe the PCV system only exists due to emmisions… WOW… and with that good luck…your going to need it
I think that makes good sense. I’d have to look more into it and see if I can come by any other remanufactured intake owners.
Dude…
Yes pcv is nice to remove water vapor etc. But if you don’t use the car for 4 minute drives only (which is what an s6 or s8 is not meant for anyways) you’ll offgas that anyways, also without the help of positive venting.
Now since your reply regarding the ‘proof’ an engine runs bad without pcv as simulated by taking off the oil filler cap, I think it is you who could benefit from some added reading and learning before scaring everybody off from a potential fix that would cost very little.
Pcv is not some holy grail of required engine power and durability technology. If you do the oil changes when they need to be done and if you don’t drive the car for groceries only there is no reason to leave it on. Also the slight vacuum created by the pcv system is WAY less than the belt driven systems in dragracers and no performance losses will be measured. I’ll leave it at this for others to be informed because you seem like you have figured out your own truth and I wish not to upset you any more.
With all the questions about new intakes and any changes. I was doing an oil change for my local S8 buddy and we decided to stick an inspection camera down the intake and see what we could find Vs my oil intake.
First glance, everything looks the same. Obviously, the blue flap tabs look good.
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/119585097.jpg
From my experience, all the failures I’ve seen other than pivot point breaks happen at this union
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/658464548.jpg
I know there has been a lot of talks as well on PCV and oil separator. These pictures are after 22,774 miles of a mix of hard driving and long idle times.
Honestly, I had to zoom in to show the small puddle of oil it was that small and there was no oil on the flaps to speak of.
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/169506505.jpg
I didn’t carbon check the valves but for the average person, I don’t see anything wrong with the current PCV and oil separator system. It appears to be working very well after 22,000+ miles. I think maintenance is the key here, I pulled my intake after closer to 8000 miles and it looked brand new inside with zero oil, and I hoon on my car.
However, it’s always fun to see other ideas when it comes to these things.
The thing is you don’t even have to see something and still the crank vent gasses harm the plastics. I know this not only from professional (tier 1 automotive engineering) experience but also really practical; it doesn’t matter how high quality plastic or rubber is used, pcv pipes and hoses always turn brittle and cracked.
Another slightly relevant thing to note about pcv, in the BMW S engines (the ones in the real M cars) the pcv system is always let out (OEM!!). There is a cyclonic separator and a connection to the intake manifold, but in the (factory) race prepped cars this manifold connection is blanked and the cyclonic separator vented to atmosphere via a catch can system. In BMW only the normal engines have pcv.
Seriously at this point your just rambling on. Look up blow by and just use comon sense if this was 30 years ago you would be all set.
I think most people are smart enough to understand that audi put the system in for a reason and that other high performance cars have a PCV and oil seperation system for a reason.
The PCV system PULLS OUT the harmful contaminates of blow by and creates a low pressure behind the piston. If you dont want to pull out the harmfull contaminates fine no body is forcing you to. But a PCV system helps in low speed and idle driving along with keeping the motor more efficent at cruseing speeds. So its actually working almost all the time.
Yes its easy proof to show how little you know by just pulling the oil cap off. As venting to atmosphere is the same as pulling your oil cap off. On your list of great ideas you maybe forgot that your idea would be similar to that and cause a vac leak. Now sure you can put a check valve in but as someone that actually knows what Im talking about. if you dont want to pull harmfull contaminance out of the crank case thats fine honestly thats up to you just make sure to keep an eye on your fuel trims when you try your idea. AGAIN this isnt a new idea. Your not the first person to think of this.
And from the pictures CV just posted after 22,000 miles I dont see where there there is any real reason to even think about this.
I get that you think your idea is great… I tried to help show the flaws and reasons why you wouldnt want to do this. Then it looks like with pictures posted after 22,000 miles that the answer is actually just keeping the car in good working condition.
Again if you think this is so great go have at it… My posts were meant to be more of something to think about before you jump into this… Im not trying to be combative. Just trying to add somethings to help you think about what your doing. If after all I have added you still think this is so great. Good luck man. Even if you dont like what I have said just keep in mind my intention was to try and help…
Justin please look at the routing of the pcv system as to be better informed so you are not placing false information.
The pcv sucks in metered air from the left intake tube. Via the top of crank. Through one way check valve. Through crank. Out the valve covers. Through pcv valve and cyclonics. Through aluminium sprout. Into intake manifold.
Open up the oil filler cap and you’ll suck in unmetered air. Via valve covers. Through pcv/cyclonic. Alu tube. Intake.
Sigh
Dude your missing the point. Its a dead horse at this point. Good luck
With vent to air system you blank off the hole in left intake pipe and top of crankcase and aluminium pipe on intake. All you do is vent from valve covers to ambient. Has zero resemblance to your idea of taking off the cap nor does it cause any vac leak