Getting ready for track season 2015

B8 S4
#1

Figured I’d make a new thread on this, since I just signed up for the Audi event at the end of April at Grattan. Would highly recommend the event to anyone interested. I made a pretty detailed thread about this event last year: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/594129-HPDE-at-Grattan-Raceway-MI-with-Audi-Club

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5563/14990526491_b4c9f570d2_b.jpg


Wheels

For starters, I grabbed a set off V810 track wheels (look identical to BBS CH-R)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/11332549916_1ce597dfd1_b.jpg

My reasons for this were as follows (pretty much all credit here goes to Jran for helping with fitment):

  • Run an 18" R-Comp tire for budgetary reasons, and my 355mm ST60 will fit under 18" wheels;
  • Would like to be able to run wider tires (nothing under 9" wide);
  • Stop killing my street PSS tires;
  • Decent weight savings with not major compromise on strength;
  • No rubbing possible with 265/35R18;
  • Preferably no centering rings needed;
  • Something decently mass produced so I could procure replacements if needed;
  • Needs to clear BBK w/o spacers;
  • Reasonably priced, did not want to spend 2.5k on BBS wheels that weren’t even optimal fitment;
  • Ideally something that will sell in the 2nd hand market.

My first choice were enkei wheels, RPF1 or PF01, but the fitment was never ideal. And the main blow came from a vendor saying I would need 15 mm spacers to clear the BBK with 18x9 et45 PF01 wheels. Enkei’s seemed like the best compromise in cost/fitment/performance/reliability.

BBS wheels didn’t really have good 18" fitments, only could get 18x8.5 for about 2.3k, so not really worth it. I was pretty much choosing between TSW nurburgrings 18x9.5 et 40 or Neuspeed RSe52 18x9 et 40. But they both could have issues with rubbing…I think 18x9.5 et 45 was the sweet spot and I was able to find the VMR’s at 1140 shipped via mod bargains, so unless there are any complications, I’m pretty happy with this choice.

TIRES

Next up is tires, we’ve debated these here a lot (please no westwest derailment) and I had come to the conclusion that A048’s were the superior tire to R888’s on heavy cars. But there are quite a few people who really like the R888’s. The main advantage I remember was the Yoko’s last longer and do better at temperature, which is pretty much par for the course with this car. The other option is to stick with street tires (R-S3’s) which would be a smart choice, considering I’m just moving to the intermediate HPDE class, and only have 1 DE at each track. I could also go pilot cup or an expensive Perreli (which I think west mentioned). Key here is I want something that will last a long time, be relatively progressive and not require me to end early if it rains.

So my choices in 265/35R18 are

  • Yoko A048 - $325/tire (might not be in stock at tirerack, so might be moot);
  • Toyo R888 - $300/tire;
  • Michelin Pilot Cup - $370/tire;
  • Pirelli P Zero Trofeo - $375/tire;
  • Hankook R-S3 - $233/tire;

Side note: have a friend who works at conti, really wish they made a decent tire because I can get a massive discount on them :-\

BRAKE PADS

Nothing interesting here, going with carbotech XP24’s. Ran XP20’s last year, and they held up really well. But the wear rate sucked at gingerman, believe it was due to not swapping pads during the event. I’ll double check how thin the xp20’s are, probably need to grab a micrometer.

In the rear, my xp8’s are fine with plenty of life left. Will also flush some fresh SRX in there.

ALIGNMENT

I will get a more aggressive alignment done. Probably will consult the westwest alignment achieved thread and do something slightly less aggressive, probably about 2.1 deg front camber and neutral on the toe. I forget the rear camber specs, but I’ll make mine more aggressive. Will either get this done with Ray in Windsor, or just go with Arbor motion here in Ann Arbor. Arbor motion is pricey, but they are close and I’d like to have a good local shop so I don’t have to drive to Canada every time I need something done. Steve’s european is also a possibility.

Misc

Will grab a cordless impact, a lightweight racing jack, and a set of impact sockets. Still debating grabbing a junk windows tablet so I can log with VCDS while running, but probably more for at the strip (which I’ll also do soon - Muneeb/jeff, want to go soon?). I’ll probably rotate tires front/back same side mid-way through. Do you guys who swap pads or cross rotate tires put the car on jackstands or use an extra wheel/tire to swap…seems like a PITA.

I’ll probably get the car safety inspected, I’m going to install the AMS CPS myself and the car has seen 2 winters now, I could see corrosion starting to be an issue.

So what is everyone else up to? I know some of you west coast and southerner’s never had any time off, but with the F1 season started, it’s time for the rest of us ;D

#2

Nice thread and choice in wheels. Hope to join you in a couple events this summer. I’m also considering picking up a tablet to log at the strip etc… Surface 2 or 3 looks pretty nice and I could use it for school as well.

Milan opens up on april 11th, Tnt from 11-5pm but Ubly opens up earlier on the 4th, their Tnt is 12-6pm. I’d be game for either (or both haha) since they are on satudays. I’m going to be mixing up a tank of 104 pretty soon to get ready for it, excited to see what I can pull out of this car now.

#3

I’m going to go with PSS tires on my wheels. It’s hard to get more serious rubber for my fitment (285/30/R20). Tirerack has them in stock but I’m going to call Discount Tire and see if they can get it too.

I’m getting sway bars installed tomorrow - which should round out my suspension mods.

For pads, I’m sticking with my tried and trued XP24/XP12 front/rear. Though I need to remove the rear dust shields (it get’s hotter in the rears than it does in the fronts). The rear rotors will probably need to be replaced at the end of this season (it’s starting to get a “lip” on the outer surface).

I did a full brake fluid flush yesterday (Stoptech 660).

Other than that, an exhaust sometime this year.

First track day is next Sunday! Excited!

#4

I’m not understanding everyone’s need for M3 widths on their tires. I have plenty of grip with a 235?

Measure your caliper with this. Replace when it gets under 30.5mm.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OUZCSQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

#5

The stock RS5 tires are already 275s. I just went one step above.

So your tires are narrower than stock (I had 255s on the S4)?

#6

Yeah, when I ordered Cup 2 that’s all they had. I see the size lineup is complete now for that tire series. I’m running a full 1" shorter tire than you’d have with a 275, at 25.5" vs. 26.5" height. It both gears the car for better acceleration and weighs over 4 pounds less. The car hasn’t stepped out on me or done anything crazy.

I’ll probably go back to the 255 in 2016, but there’s no shame in the 235 game. This is also appealing:

245/35ZR19 XL Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R Blackwall
Serv. Desc: (93Y)

#7

Do you switch tires for the track? Definitely makes sense if you daily the car and don’t want an extra set of wheels. I’m already having to answer the “so why do you need 3 sets of tires again” questions lol.

What kind of sway bars you going with?

Doesn’t the RS5 have a valved exhaust from the factory? I can see the NA V8 having reasonable returns on going with an exhaust…while as you I’m sure know, the 3.0T exhaust mod is pretty much sound only.

#8

Hmm…looked it up and Ubly is pretty far away. How is T&T on saturdays? I kind of liked the weekday events at Milan…DA drops as it gets late and not many people there. Pretty sure that all the guys on the top of the list do it while hot lapping, so sitting in line for a long time is probably not optimal. Are there any good strips near your school?

Definitely hope you can join me at a HPDE sometime this season. I’m gonna try to do all my events at mid-ohio and grattan. Will definitely keep you posted.

#9

In the past, on the S4, I did a set of all seasons and a set of summer/track (PSS). For the RS5, I don’t see taking it up to the slopes like I did with the S4. So I’ve been tossing the idea of getting track rubber for the car. I’m running a 380mm rotor in the front so 19 inch wheels will be really tight. Which is why I’ve stayed on summers for track use. lol. I figured if I ever buy wheels, I’ll use the stock wheel for track duty.

For sways, I’ll be going with the H&R front and rear bars.

The stock exhaust does have a valve (as does the sports exhaust). A valve which I’ve unplugged. Even then, it is rather quiet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkqzZsO5dkc

#10

Typically the Tnt’s are on weekdays. I think since its opening day they are holding it on a saturday. I think I’ll still go and check it out. My hope is that it won’t be terribly busy so I can still hotlap but i’ve never gone on a saturday so I’m not sure what it will be like. Unfortunately I have class on the weekdays so I couldn’t join you then though that would be ideal to avoid crowds. No tracks near Kalamazoo either…

I think mid-ohio will be a go for me. Pretty sure this will be my last year with the car before I sell it so I want to get some good use out of it before its gone ;D

#11

Ahahaha!

I ordered the exact same wheels 2 weeks ago :slight_smile:
Also going 18x9.5 here. Excellent choice.
Fact is, in 19s, tire choice is limited if you want to run OEM size. There are only 2 real tires to pick from (AD08R, RE71R) and they are not cheap to replace in 19s.

Going 18s, prices drop significantly (we’re talking like 25%) and you get to pick from every proper tire available (rival/star spec/rs3/re11/re71r/ad08/r1r/xs etc). That said, I am not sure about running a 265 (RS3) on the 9.5 wide wheel.
The RS3 is already a soft sidewall, and running a 265 on a 9.5 may not be enough wheel to support the carcas, PLUS your sidewall is now taller than it was in the 19s. Just not a good recepie for an understeering, 4000lb car IMO.

I had enough of battling soft sidewalls (not to mention the squishy lack of precision) with the stock conti sport contact 3’s. Personally, I picked up a set of dunlop Z2’s in 245/40R18 - the 245s are 9.5 wide already. How wide is the tread face on the 265 RS3? Probably 10?

Anyway, you can’t go wrong whatever you choose. RS3 is a very fast tire (still the fave in many circles). Though if you’ll notice, the RS3 is favored by rwd pointy cars (Miata, S2k, Mustang), where the soft side wall is beneficial and preferred for the progressive break away.

BFG Rival’s are another good option, suited to this car imo (likes big slip angles, stiffer sidewall). FWIW, the rivals and Z2’s are on close out now :slight_smile: What color V810 wheels did you end up getting?

#12

I forgot to mention…good decision on not selecting the R888.
They are poop. That said, R comps isn’t about logevity–whatever tire you choose, it will bite the dust pretty quickly with this car. It’s not how much tread is left on the tire, but how many heat cycles it can take. You’ll find in most cases that the tire still looks like it has good tread life left in it, but the compound is all done for. I would think the Audi eats these for lunch (lots of heat–heavy car). That said, it’s all good if all you’re doing is swapping these out at the track and only lapping on them (vs driving to the track with them on–that is a different story).

Consider too the NT01–they like the heat, can survive lots of heat cycles and wear forever.

As for tire width, a wider tire is going to get you more heat tollerance. A wider tire is not faster–tested by GRM and other publications.

http://www.ffrchallenge.com/tire_test_2007/tire_test_2007.html

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a4835/thing-you-thought-you-knew-points-of-contact-tire-patches/

Food for thought!

#13

Went with gunmetal on the V810’s. Was told that any color besides gunmetal and silver would require stripping the finish and powder coating, either by modbargains or VMR. Was hoping to get bronze wheels or black, but I’m fine with what I got. Would definitely prefer not to deal with any issues due to the extra heat cycle the baking requires.

Regarding the tread size. Isn’t a 245 more fitted optimally to a 8" wide rim? I thought a 255 was 8.5 and 265 a 9 etc. So the 265/35R18 would still be slightly stretched on my wheels. My 255/35R19 PSS on my 19x9.5 wheels look pretty stretched.

I’m pretty sure for this size wheel, this is a good tire size. As Psy said, the RS5 comes with 275/30R20 tires, so I don’t think we’re “over tiring” the car. The RS5 might weigh an extra 100 lbs or so? The RS5 at least has the brakes to handle track driving, so maybe this is why it gets these wide tires. I remember this debate before with west, and we didn’t really get very far.

But there is a nice discussion here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=78848

One point stands out as a good summary

[quote]When you fit wider tyres, what you’re doing is making the contact patch wider and shorter for the same tyre pressure. This means you get a more abrupt breakaway but more grip right on the limit. The disadvantage is more expensive tyres, more tramlining and steering kickback, more wind and rolling resistance and noise, less grip in slippery conditions, a more abrupt breakaway to catch out the unwary driver and less warning through the steering about how close the tyres are to breaking away.
[/quote]
At the extreme, there are people who are running 275/35R18 hoosiers.

#14

Sounds pretty good to me ;D But yea, always nicer to hear yourself. How many track days do you get out of your PSS tires? I think mine are done after 1 season.

#15

I’m with you nearly all the way :slight_smile:
As you know, tire sizing slightly non-standard and will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
a 255/35R19 PSS is only 8.5 wide at the tread (see: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Super+Sport&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=535YR9PSS&tab=Specs).

This is why you have stretch.
However, a 245/40R18 Dunlop Z2 is actually 9.5 wide at the tread (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Direzza+ZII&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=44WR8Z2&tab=Specs).

So in this case, a narrow tire ends up being wider than the specs would otherwise suggest, and the tread face is a full 1 inch wider than the next tire up (!!!).

The whole “265 is a 9 inch” etc is a correct rule of thumb, but as you’ll see, it varies wildly when you’re talking about width of the tread face. That said, the measured width of the Hankook is 9.5, so don’t get me wrong - it’s not unideal to run the 265 hankooks on this wheel at all!

Then hankook is 10.7 inches wide at the tread in the 265 size. I just personally did not want a run a tire where the tread is over 1 inch wider than the wheel it sits on – not on this 4000lb beast!

I considered those RS3 tires too but opted for the Z2’s. I like the characteristics of the dunlop tire–it’s much more precise and has firmer sidewalls (at the expense of more abrupt break away). I will trade break away for precision on this car. Turn-in is already a little too sloppy for my tastes. It was just a personal choice.

Regardless, whatever you choose will get you huge gains. You’re on the right track :smiley:

Since you were having wear problems with the carbotechs, why not consider trying a different pad?
Endless ME20 also look to be available from the GMG guys.

#16

Ahhhhhh

I see what you mean now…interesting, so this really defines how much a tire “bulges”, so I can actually determine stretch based on this rather than rely on Jran lol

Wow, the price on those tires is killer…hmmm…so you feel pretty good about that setup? I probably could use another season on street tires rather than getting onto r-comps.

#17

Yup, I feel good enough about it to not worry about going with a wider tire XD
FWIW, the global time attack rules stipulate that the max tire width on an awd car is 255. Not that it matters in the slightest, but it’s evidence that there are guys out there with awd with their cars totally suited to that tire size. World Challenge cars have a max width of 275. Both cars in both of these racing series are way faster than we’ll ever be. I wouldn’t sweat the tire size too much. 265 RS3 vs 245 Z2…whatever! Both will work. I just…man, seeing my tire wear last season, and knowing how much this thing plows, I opted for the tire with a stiffer sidewall.

A stiffer sidewall PLUS a tire carcass that is more properly supported by a wide wheel to better maintain the contact patch shape under load - how is that not a good thing! Thus my decision to go with a 245 dunlop.

The Hankook will absolutely work as well–but I would not be surprised if you had similar tire squirm levels as stock. Which is fine if you’re cool with it. I am just absolutely not happy with that :wink:

A 265 = can take more heat, but will have more squirm. A 245 will be more precise + have sharper steering response and corner entry characteristics, at the expense of handling high heat for as long as a duration as a 265 would. I’ll take the precision over the heat issue. Driving more precisely is going to help manage tire heat on its own. Not to mention, 245 is still a stock tire size, so we aren’t “under tire-ing” the car. And as you now see, the “245” dunlop is wider than a typical 255–it’s a cheater tire. It’s sort of like a “260” size (if there were such a thing). With it perfectly matched to the rim width, you’ll find an improvement in handling. That’s what made the wider wheel worth it to me.

Not to mention that the 245 tire is cheap as chips :smiley:

Oh and FWIW, a 9.5 wide front tire is already wider than what an M3/M4, Boss/GT, C63 etc already comes with. All of those cars are nearly as heavy and more powerful…and they make due with a narrower front tire. I don’t have any issues with running a 9.5 wide tire on this machine.

PLUS, you mention you are going more aggressive camber (as am I), so that will help with your tire temps also (esp the 0 toe).
I doubt -2 is enough though :smiley: :smiley: but that’s another discussion!

#18

glad to know those wheels will clear BBKs, gives me hope they will clear oe RS5 brakes I have on my car

#19

According to modbargins they will…I’ll find out for sure sometime this week.

BTW - thanks Boro, just ordered those tires, definitely a much better price! How important do you think a good alignment would be on these tires? I assumed for the R-Comps it would be necessary, but maybe for these street tires, I can still be within stock camber? Hmm…I’ll probably do it anyway.

#20

The Z2’s like camber like a race tire would.
Something that works well with stock camber is the BFG rival. They aren’t as picky about it.

Regardless, with something this grippy, stock upper control arms probably won’t be enough. You’ll be rolling into the sidewalls in no time :slight_smile:

Remember, these extreme performance summers are basically the same level of performance as a last gen R compound. So treat them the same way. The tread wear is “200”. It’s all superficial to meet SCCA spec. It’s a farce, which I’m sure you followed it. For example, the RS3 was released as 140 tread wear. SCCA changed the regulation, requiring 200 to be a street tire. All hankook did was relabel the “140” into a “200” with no change in compound. All of these extreme perf tires have who knows what tread wear in reality.