Help: Car flooding... won't start.

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

Hello,

Semi-new here and new to Audis/S4s. Long story short, bought an '04 S4 6 spd in February, lost a cam adjuster and guide in late April, been working on it ever since.

So, the motor is back in, everything is hooked up, but it refuses to start. Was able to get it to run for 15 seconds or so before it bogged and died, never to start again.

I smelled the exhaust and it was very heavy with raw fuel. Pulled the plugs, wet with fuel.

After a few weeks of troubleshooting, I’m spent. I’ve checked the camshaft timing and it’s on, changed the crank speed sensor, new plugs, etc.

Finally got a VAG-com running the VCS-lite to check codes on Friday.

Pulled:

P0113
P0346 - scares me but I think it’s because I dropped both sensors while the motor was out
P0341 - " " "
P1426
P1602
P1577
P1376
P1355

Now I’ve dried the motor out after a ton of cranking and plug switching, was about to try plugging in the fuel pump again, and then found the measuring block area in the VCS-lite.

So, in measuring block 2, with the key in and in the on position (engine not cranking and certainly not running) the load reading is showing 100%. Is this right? Can someone check theirs?

This makes sense to me, considdering my symptoms. I figure, the ECU is seeing the load at 100%, which would would cause the injectors to go wide open during cranking, essentially putting a firehose of fuel into the cylinder and overwhelming the poor little spark plugs.

So, my thoughts are either bad MAF or bad ECU. Thoughts? Anything else that feeds the load calculation for the motor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve been without my car for over 4 months now and I’m at my wits end.

Let me know if you need any other information in order to assist.

Thanks,
Garret

#2

Just went out and logged while I was cranking and it showed around 38-42% load.

So now I’m back to square one… (banging head against wall)

#3

G rat. can you take the P codes and match them up with the Tech section here and fill in what they are. There is the tech section

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=732.0

The majority of your codes look like they wouldn’t be an issue for this. I started my car and It peaks around 40 or so. Did you do a compression test. That might help.

#4

Thanks for the help/response Chris. Was the load reading ~40% when you were cranking? And what did it start at when the key was just in the ignition? Mine is at 100% with key in and goes to 40%ish when cranking.

I did a compression test before I started the work but I’m pretty sure the numbers were inconclusive. With a warm engine I was getting 80 PSI across all cylinders. Car ran great and pulled hard, I don’t think it was 50% down on power/compression. Burned a small amount of oil but nothing that would be cause for concern. My guess is that my compression tester or o-ring are bad and it didn’t seal enough.

P0113 – Intake Air Temp Circ High Input
P0346 – Camshaft Pos. Sensor Circ Range/Performance (Bank 2)
P0341 – Camshaft Pos. Sensor Circ Range/Performance (Bank 1)
P1426 – Tank Vent Valve Open
P1602 – Power Supply (B+) Terminal 30 Low Voltage
P1577 – Right Engine Mount Solenoid Valve Open Circuit
P1376 – Cyl. 8 Ignition Circuit open circuit
P1355 – Cyl. 1 Ignition Circuit open circuit

No codes come back regularly except the cam sensor codes.

Any thoughts anyone? I did notice that my voltage dips quite a bit during cranking, down in the 8.5-10 volt range. Could this whole craziness be caused by a bad battery?

#5

G-Rat.

Yes your wows could be just from a bad batt. The car, From what I remember needs at least 11v to start. Try that first.

Thanks for the definition on the codes that makes this much easier.

The cam codes could be the sorce of many a issue, not sure it would cause the car to not start.

I would suggest you try this. Key the car forward for about 20min, preferably with a batt charger on it. Go back and check again for codes. Watch the voltage and get it up to 12. Then attempt to start.

#6

Hi Carlos, thanks for the help.

I agree on the cam codes. From the research I’ve done, bad sensors will make the car run rough but won’t make it flood out/not start.

The voltage is around 12.2 after charging and drops down to 11, 10, 9 while cranking. Not sure if that makes a big difference. Either way I think a new battery wouldn’t be a bad call.

And what exactly do you mean by keying the car forward for 20 mins? Do you mean using the starter to move the car with it in gear? Isn’t that terrible for the starter?

Again, thanks for the help.

#7

I think he means in the acc spot. The spot where the key would be in when its running but not running the starter.

#8

Techs sometimes forget about the engine off when saying try turning the key on. I have done it before and that person jerked the car forward with the car in first gear, a ton of parts taken off, and within three feet of my tool box.

#9

Tried leaving the key in the “on” position as mentioned above for 1 hour. No new code, no start…

Still lost.

I just don’t get why the car would be adding so much fuel.

Can someone log their injection time during start-up/cranking? Mine starts at 3.xx ms and then drops to 0.87 ms… the .87 sounds more normal, 3 + ms is a ton of fuel.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied. So ready to give up.

-Garret

#10

what is the batt voltage. That is imporant. Also take off the fuel line then make sure you got all the fuel out of the line that you can. Then key forward and try to start ONLY two times for no more then 3 sec. Go back and check the fuel line. See if its up on pressure

#11

Thanks Jusincredible…

Voltage is usually around 12.1 with the key on after charging.

So you’re saying that I should try to get all of the fuel out of the line before starting? I would think air in the line would cause starting issues. And should I “see if it’s up on pressure” with a gauge or what? Is this to see if the pump is priming or to try and start the car?

#12

justin is looking to see that there is fuel in the line. Make sure there is. Then clean the plugs if there fouled out.

When you start the car if you go WOT with the gas pedal it turns off the injectors so you don’t need to unplug the pump.

I would check the old standby stuff. Check for spark and fuel.

for now. check to make sure the fuel is being send. I agree with justin. Take off the line and then key up the car. See if the fuel pump sends fuel. From there crank the car with the fuel line off EXPECT to see fuel. I would suggest puting the fuel line in a bottle while testing.

After that take out a plug and leave it in a coil pack. From there crank the motor look to see that the plug is fireing off. Let me know what electrical tools you have as you can test this much eaiser if you have the right tools

#13

Thanks CountVohn…

Confirmed that I’m getting fuel, not sure how much would be normal or not. I’d like to check the pressure but I don’t have the tools for that at this point. I will look into that in the next week or so.

I will confirm spark today. I know that the car fires after sitting overnight and letting the plugs dry. It will try to start off the excess fuel sitting in the cylinders and register 800-1000 rpm for a couple seconds. So I’m guessing it is getting spark from at least 2 coils but I will confirm all 8.

As far as electrical tools, I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for… I have a multimeter (which I think would be the most needed), one of those probes that light up to check for + voltage, I have a fuse tester and a timing light (can’t imagine that would help). Not sure what else I could need.

During my thinking and trouble shooting, I realized one other potential issue. While the motor was out, I had an epic battle to get my ECU out of it’s little metal prison (for a future JHM tune). I had to use a little force and a hammer (I’m sure that’s frowned upon). Wondering if I could have freaked out the ECU with the shock/vibration. Maybe making the ECU send WOT voltage to my injectors from some reason? I guess I can check that with the multimeter, just need to figure out what the voltage should be. Also I noticed that the ECU case gets pretty warm when I’m cranking the motor. I know electronics create heat, but this seems excessive. Any thoughts here?

My only other thought is that I need to face the music and focus on what the Vagcom is telling me. It’s throwing cam position codes and obviously I messed with the cams. There must be some chance that could be one or more teeth off on the cam gear(s). I don’t think that cam sensor codes should cause a no-start, but if I’m off on timing, I imagine that the intake valves could be open at TDC, creating zero compression. I’d really like to avoid pulling my motor again but I will if necessary. I have 2 problems with this theory though…

  1. the car tries to start when it sits overnight and I crank it without fuel. So it seems like fueling is variable that’s causing the no-start, not a lack of compression/spark.

  2. setting the timing is pretty straightforward. I had all of the Audi tools, crank was locked at TDC and so were the cams. The only thing I think could have been an issues is the potential to “pre-load” the cam adjuster when tightening. Even if I did this, I don’t think the adjusters could be loaded much more than 2-5* at most. Which again, would probably not cause a no-start and is very unlikely that I messed up both banks equally to the point where it won’t run.

Lastly, I had a professional Audi tech come over to look at the car with me. He checked the Vagcom and logged a few things but in the end said “It just doesn’t make sense…” so that was a bust. Going to try and dry the motor out for the next week and put a little oil in the cylinders to set the rings, and then check compression to be safe. If that doesn’t work then I don’t know what to do. Probably try to isolate the overfueling variables and get a new fuel filter, have the injectors cleaned, test the voltage on the injector harness and send the ECU to JHM to have them take a look at it.

Sorry for the long post… really want to get my car running ASAP, I miss driving her so bad.

All help is greatly appreciated.

-Garret

#14

you might have to take a serious look at the timing. Check the crank sensor. That keep everything in sink. You’re not getting a immob code right?

#15

I replaced the crank sensor a couple weeks ago. I thought I may have messed it up while lining up the transmission and engine (crushed it etc).

I guess I will pull the driver’s side VC to check the cams. I already checked the passenger and the notches in the cams were lined up. Isn’t there some measuring block that you can log to see the timing count. I mean, something that would confirm that I’m a tooth off on timing? I thought I saw that as an option but I would need to get the full version. I would just like to see what the cam position sensors are referencing to throw the codes.

No immobilizer codes, no light in the dash. That was one of the first things that I thought it could be.

Going to order a couple parts tomorrow and see if anything sticks. New fuel filter, new cam position sensors, new battery. Then I will probably send out my injectors and ecu to get checked out.

If that all fails, I guess the motor will have to come out again.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions everyone. The solution is out there somewhere, I know it.

#16

The motor is coming back out this weekend… >:(

#17

Mine doesn’t shut off the fuel when I go WOT on a cold start. I wish it would.

2004 B6 Avant 6 MT with JHM 93 tune.

#18

I figured I would update since I hate unresolved threads.

Pulled the motor… 30 bent valves. Replaced all the valves and put everything back together.

Shes running like a champ now. 550 miles in… can’t wait for my JHM clutch/LWFW to be broken in so I can hear the engine really roar.

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. I have such love for this car now… never want to get rid of her. Well at least not until I can afford an RS4. ;D

#19

batting 750!

Good to hear (you’re back on the road). What do our intake and exhaust valves cost each anyway?

#20

wonderful update G-rat. Always bad to hear about a hurt motor. Great to hear its fixed.