How do you safely separate/re-mate the Tiptronic transmission from the engine?

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

Hi guys,

My 2005 B6 S4 is going under the knife this weekend for the timing components change. I feel confident about most parts of this job, but never having done it before, there’s always something new to learn.

I’m doing this job alone, with my wife as my able assistant. We’re both in our upper 40’s, and haven’t hit the gym in a while. I’m an IT guy who flies a computer all day at work. Let’s just say that we don’t have superhero strength. ;D

That being said, I’ve owned 3 Audis(B5 A4, B6 A4, B6 S4) and have performed almost every type of maintenance and repair that you can think of, from many bouts with the dreaded pinch bolt, power steering racks, suspension/control arms, and I even managed to get my downpipes out to do piggies(a job, I might add, that I will never tackle again without a lift!)

Anyway, on justincredible’s advice, I’m making this thread to learn how to safely separate/re-mate the Tiptronic transmission to the engine. I have a 2 ton engine hoist.

badger accomplished this on his recent timing components job, but didn’t really say how he dealt with the transmission.

Any advice/suggestions/pics will be very much appreciated!

#2

At any point along the way if you need help beyond what I’m posting let me know.

I’ll give you a few tips and if you are still unsure feel free to ask.

If you have a hoist that’s great but your best bet is pulling the motor out of the front of the car and getting the motor onto some sort of table. If you don’t have a table I suggest you build one. Even if it’s just wanted feet off the ground and low enough to use the hoist to drop the motor and transmission on.

Let me warn you. The ZF6hp transmission is very heavy. Like almost 300 lbs heavy. And it’s super bulky.

When you pull the transmission it’s easy to separate it from the motor. But pulling the transmission is the easy part. The two converter will just stay connected to the flex plate. To remove the tq converter your going to need to pull the starter and use a triple square bit to remove the 3 bolts holding the tq converter to the flex plate.

Now if it was me and you have never removed the transmission and tq converter you would be smart to Not separate the transmission from the motor and not pull the tq converter with it. You can pull the transmission off the motor and leave the tq converter bolted to the flex plate or you can unbolt the tq converter from the flex plate and make sure to pull the transmission and the tq converter at the same time.

The reason I would suggest you pull the tq converter and transmission together is so you can mark the depth of the tq converter inside the bell housing. It’s a good idea to mark the converter with a visible color marker through the inspection hole on the bell housing as well.

The reason the depth of the tq converter is so important is that you don’t just slide on the tq converter to the transmission shaft. The tq converter needs to be spun and seated on the shaft. The tq converter will drop down 3 times as you spin it on the input shaft of the transmission. This locks the tq converter spline in with the transmission. If you do this wrong. The car will never move and you can destroy the transmission or kill the pump.

So far let me know if any of this makes sense

#3

Yep, I’m planning on making some kind of table/wood concoction on which to set the engine and transmission after they come out of the car. Check.

[quote]pulling the transmission is the easy part. The two converter will just stay connected to the flex plate.
[/quote]
Do I understand correctly that if I pull the transmission off the engine without releasing the torque converter, that it will remain attached to the flex plate. And the flex plate is part of the engine, not the transmission. Right?

[quote]To remove the tq converter your going to need to pull the starter and use a triple square bit to remove the 3 bolts holding the tq converter to the flex plate.
[/quote]
I believe badger, and possibly others, have mentioned that they unbolted the converter and it did, or nearly did, drop on the floor. I assume this means to have it supported before hand. What size triple square bit is needed? 10mm? I think I have a set of three different sizes.

[quote]Now if it was me and you have never removed the transmission and tq converter you would be smart to Not separate the transmission from the motor and not pull the tq converter with it. You can pull the transmission off the motor and leave the tq converter bolted to the flex plate or you can unbolt the tq converter from the flex plate and make sure to pull the transmission and the tq converter at the same time.

The reason I would suggest you pull the tq converter and transmission together is so you can mark the depth of the tq converter inside the bell housing. It’s a good idea to mark the converter with a visible color marker through the inspection hole on the bell housing as well.
[/quote]
These two paragraphs confused me a bit at first, but I think I understand that it’s best to pull the torque converter along with the transmission, at the same time. If I unbolt the tq converter from the flex plate, then pull both off of the engine at the same time, does the tq converter remain “screwed in” to the input shaft?

[quote]The reason the depth of the tq converter is so important is that you don’t just slide on the tq converter to the transmission shaft. The tq converter needs to be spun and seated on the shaft. The tq converter will drop down 3 times as you spin it on the input shaft of the transmission. This locks the tq converter spline in with the transmission. If you do this wrong. The car will never move and you can destroy the transmission or kill the pump.
[/quote]
But if I pull the tq converter at the same time as the transmission, won’t it stay on the input shaft? Isn’t the input shaft part of the transmission, and not the engine? Btw, I apologize if I’m asking questions that are easily answered by looking at the Bentley manual. My copy is in the mail and should arrive in the next day or two.

#4

[quote=“justincredible,post:2,topic:7485”]
My Dad and I picked it up by hand a few times and moved it around. It was heavy but not unmanageable by any means. The table I built supported it by the trans mounts and the front edge near the bell housing.

This is what I did. Took off the 3 bolts via the hole you get after pulling the starter.

When I pulled them together, the TC stayed connected to the trans but it had slipped forward toward the end of the trans shaft. So it didnt fall, but if I had let the trans tip forward at all as I was pulling it back it probably could have slipped off.

There is a depth range in the bentley that specifies a minimum. I measured it using a level held against the bell housing and a ruler perpendicular to that and measured from the flat of the level to the TC. I agree marking it would probably help too.

I think what justincredible is trying to say, and what I would do if I was to do this all again, is:

  1. Leave the TC bolted to the flywheel. (those 3 bolts)
  2. Pull the transmission off, leaving TC on engine
  3. unbolt the TC from the flywheel
    To reinstall:
  4. slide the TC in place on the transmission
  5. install the flywheel on the engine
  6. mate the two together careful to keep the TC seated in the trans
  7. bolt the TC to the flywheel through the starter hole.

It is very important to seat the TC all the way into the transmission, as already stated. There was also a step near the end (before replacing the 3 bolts - TC to flywheel) outlined in the bentley I think, a way to spin the TC and flywheel and it was a check to make sure nothing had moved around when reassembling it all.

#5

Great plan. The transmission is super heavy and it will be next to impossible to shim up the transmission to bolt up the tq converter if you don’t have enough surface to have both the motor and transmission to sit on. The better table you make the better off you are.

Now to the questions

1
Yes kinda. Manual cars have a flywheel that the clutch grabs onto automatic cars have a flex plate that the tq converter bolts to. Think of the flex plate as like a flywheel even tho its something different. The flex plate bolts to the motor but it’s not nessessarly part of the motor. When you pull off the flex plate to get to the Back motor covers be careful to look for any shims between the crankshaft and the flex plate. You need those

2
Ok the big issue with the tq converter is that you can’t just slide the tq converter back on. It needs to be spun several times in different directions and locked in and it can be hard to tell if you have the tq converter all the way seated if you don’t have a reference. So before you do anything mark the tq converter depth location through the inspection window. It’s smart and helpful later.

3
the tq converter slides off the shaft easy and straight but it doesn’t go back in easy and straight. So you want to try and keep the tq converter locked on the input shaft of the transmission. As it will save you hassle later and you don’t get a ton of transmission fluid everywhere. The tq converter has several quarts of transmission fluid in it. Anything that spills out your going to need to refill so for several reasons it’s just best to keep the tq converter in place. I can’t stress enough mark the tq converter location so you don’t have to wonder if it’s in far enough when you reinstall.

4
This website is all about getting people together who want to help. So ask as many questions as you need.

Here is how it works.

Your motor spins. You can take that spinning and put it through a transmission to transmit the power or spinning to the wheels and make them spin.

Your transmission is a automatic. So unlike a manual transmission your transmission automatically does certain things but under mechanical situations. Your transmission input shaft goes into the tq converter your tq converter is connected to the flex plate and the flex plate is connected to the crank shaft.

#6

Just to share my auto trans divorce and marriage. I’m a pretty small dude and solo’ed the task without using a table of any sort.

Basically followed the Bentley manual. Wrapped a couple cinder blocks in carpet. Lowered the engine/trans and supported the trans on the blocks with the engine connected to the hoist. Then separated the two. Putting them back together was a little harder just trying to get everything lined up. Overall not too bad though.

#7

You guys rock so hard I can’t believe it. Words cannot express my appreciation at all the helpful advice. My Bently hasn’t arrived yet(hopefully today), so I must ask…what size triple square is needed for the bolts that hold the TC onto the flywheel?

I’m also going to perform a compression test today or tomorrow, just to make sure that the engine is healthy before I begin this endeavor.

justincredible, do you agree with badger’s plan as outlined below, and modified by me to add marking the position of the TC via the view hole?

  1. Leave the TC bolted to the flywheel. (those 3 bolts)
    a. Mark the TC position on the input shaft via the view hole.
  2. Pull the transmission off, leaving TC on engine
  3. unbolt the TC from the flywheel
    To reinstall:
  4. slide the TC in place on the transmission
  5. install the flywheel on the engine
  6. mate the two together careful to keep the TC seated in the trans
  7. bolt the TC to the flywheel through the starter hole.
#8

No I do not. It really saves very little time when I have done it that way and you will loose a lot of fluid that you need to replace and you can only add transmission fluid from under the car while it’s running and up to operational temps.

I’ve done transmission removal way too many times to count. The reality is you can do it in the dirt all by yourself if you really want to. For me I go the extra step to make less work for myself and less chance of error for myself. The last thing I ever want it to be helping someone and have something go wrong.

The biggest issue with the transmission is the proper location and depth for the tq converter. There have been times I have removed the tq converter and it drops back in the first channel I spin it and it drops back in the second channel and slide in to its finial spot and then there have been other times it just takes forever.

So I always leave the tq converter on the input shaft and in the transmission. Even tho I do this I ALWAYS mark the depth of the tq converter for safe sake. I leave the converter on the transmission and remove the converter from the flex plate before I remove the transmission bolts. It’s marginally easier with the transmission removed to get the converter off but for you it will be helpful to see how it’s going to be when you have to reinstall it

here is what I do.

Get the motor and transmission on a level plane with each other. This is very helpful for install and removal. If not level you can mess up the input shaft depending on what happens on removing.

Mark the tq converter through the inspection window and take a picture for reference. You might want to mark a few spots on the converter by spinning it. This way you can not worry about if the spot you marked gets rotated outside of the window.

Pull the starter and all the hardware around it. This is your only real opening to get to the converter bolts. There are 3 of them. You will need to spin the motor over to get to them all. Off my head I think it’s a 8 triple square

After the bolts are out for the converter go and number the bolts from the left side of the transmission to the right side of the transmission in numerical order. This is important because not all the bolts are the same length and you can Crack the block of you run in a bolt that’s too long into a more shallow hole. This has happened to people before. So number each bolt so you will know where it goes when it’s time to reinstall.

After you have all the bolts out gently lift up slightly on the transmission and turn it from left to right slightly. This should break the pitch bond. From there don’t pull go back through the starter hole and with a dead blow hammer and a small broom handle like short piece of wood tap on the tq converter to break it free of the flex plate and the nose shaft in the flex plate. Once the converter is free of the flex plate and the nose shaft is free of the flex plate just pull the transmission back to its finial resting place. You might need to pull back the transmission slightly as you make room for the converter to come out.

With the transmission out and away. Just make sure the converter is still in its marked location and just leave it alone. This way you won’t loose any fluid and your all set and staged to reinstall it

#9

Ok, so what you just described is exactly how I did it with just 2 exceptions:

  1. I didn’t mark the TC depth (I agree this would be good to do)
  2. I didn’t tap it free with a broomstick (I also agree this would be good to do)

Leaving it on the trans puts you at risk of it (TC) slipping forward/off still especially if you don’t pull the trans back 100% level or tipped back a smidge. I imagine tapping it with the stick would break the bond to the flexplate enough where it should stay on the trans output shaft. Mine slipped forward a bit so I just pulled it off and set it with the hole “up” to keep the fluid in. I lost maybe a pint of fluid total, which I added back in through the trans cooler lines that run to the front clip.

Disregard my “steps” above :slight_smile: That would definitely cause you to lose the fluid in the TC since it would still be bolted to the flexplate and once the trans is off it would drain. Didn’t think of that!

#10

Badger I wasn’t trying to make it sound like your way wasn’t good. I just always suggest doing everything you can to leave the tq converter on the input shaft and fully seated. You mentioned both ways are very similar.

When pulling the transmission back off the block you can wedge a long screwdriver in the inspection hole in front of the tq converter to keep it in place on the input shaft as you pull the transmission back

As a matter of fact. Slick if you can snap a bunch of pictures we can do a DIY write up so others can see. I had all the pictures do make one but lots the hard drive with all my car pix on it

#11

Ok, so if I understand correctly, I will now disconnect the TC from the flex plate and leave it attached to the transmission…after taking pictures and marking its position on the shaft.

Yes, I will take a lot of pics. This is a missing link for those with the Tip transmission in this job. As a matter of fact, there needs to be pics of the actual timing procedure as well. I will take pics of that as well.

Btw, I’m not just a taker. I have given back to the community previously. My very first http://www.audiforums.com/forum/diy-do-yourself-55/diy-b5-control-arms-tie-rod-end-assemblies-part-1-preparation-173191/ was given pretty good reviews. I hope that I can contribute here as well, as my thanks to justincredible and badger.

#12

lol, where’s the damn edit button for a post? I somehow screwed up in making the URL part of the text in my post above, but I’ll be darned if I can find a way to edit it. :wink:

#13

No offense taken 8) it’s all good discussion!

Great idea.

Slick, for reference, here is the inspection hole:

http://i.imgur.com/TYbHBeb.jpg

#14

A dry/wet compression test confirmed that the engine is within spec, and I’m ready to proceed with the engine pull, just as soon as I build a table/stand for the engine to sit on. I bought a transmission jack with coasters at HF today, so I plan to set the engine on the stand I build, and the transmission on the jack. Using this method should allow me to roll the transmission away from the engine when I separate them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-61232.html

My mechanic proved to me today that I still have an exhaust blockage somewhere, so I most likely have a set of new downpipes in my near future. The car stumbles above 5k rpms, and misfires…even with new plugs and coil packs.

Let the fun begin…

#15

If you can post your compression numbers. Check the tech section there is a compression test number section

#16

I also posted these in the tech section.

Year: 2005 S4
Motor: OEM 4.2
Mileage: 110,000

Engine warm, fuel pump fuse pulled, accelerator pedal held down, 8 cranks per test. Wet test results:

1 = 130
2 = 150
3 = 135
4 = 145
5 = 145
6 = 160
7 = 150
8 = 160

#17

You need to pull the cats. You see cylinder drop from side to side like that for small damage on one side of the block.

#18

Sorry, I don’t follow you. I know that I have an exhaust blockage somewhere, probably in one of the downpipes. I already did piggies, do I can only surmise that one of the main cats is bad. I disconnected the catback and went for a drive and there was no difference in performance.

Yesterday when I had the A/C evacuated by my mechanic, he took me for a ride and demonstrated that above 5,000 RPM, the engine stumbles, misfires and just doesn’t breathe. Pre-detonation was present, too.

#19

Didn’t know you already did the pre cat pull. It’s a good idea to pull the main from what your saying