Intake temperature science applied to phenolic spacers

This was promised for next week but I’ll be traveling. And I’m bored right now. I called spacers a waste of money in another topic and I’m going to use physics to make the point.

The claim surrounding spacers is that they effectively lower intake temperatures by having a cooler intake manifold. Which is a reasonable enough sounding claim in and of itself. Sounds like common sense even so why wouldn’t it be true?

The second point is that they add a small amount of length to the runners and thus torque. The effects of this are probably measurable but constitute a slight shift of the torque curve downwards. Probably less than 100rpm going by the advertised thickness. Either way this is a secondary effect which shall be ignored for the sake of simplicity. I wouldn’t presume improving Audi’s design on the manifold is that straight forward anyway.

Issue #1: The intake temperature sensor on our cars is located before the manifold. It is practically impossible to measure the air temperature at the end of the intake manifold. Any proof of temperature differences is therefore impossible to come by.

Issue #2: Measuring the temperature changes of the intake manifold itself ignores how much heat transfer actually occurs from manifold to intake air during acceleration.

Solution: physics and maths! Boooo…

Premise 1: air isn’t a terribly good conductor of heat. So transferring heat from metal to air takes some doing. This is why charge coolers consist of many small channels and fins. An intake manifold has a different purpose thus wide wide channels for maximum flow - most of the air rushing through never touches it directly.

Premise 2: the intake air spends very little time in the intake manifold. So there’s really not much time for this poorly conductive gas to heat up at all.

How much time is spent in the intake? I’ve had to make some ballpark assumptions about runner diameter and the total length the air travels but if we take 40mm round runners (they’re not exactly round in reality, so 40mm is probably generous for the calculation) and 45 cm (about a foot and a half) average distance we can calculate the necessary speeds at various points:

  • Throttle valve is 90mm in diameter. We’ll ignore the obstruction of the valve itself.
  • Guesstimated diameter of the runners 40mm. If anyone can measure one please tell me what it actually is.
  • The BNS has pretty awesome VE, I’m assuming 100 percent for simplicity, it’s close enough.

The runner needs to feed a single cylinder. Let’s take 6000 RPM. The required velocity through the runner would be 69ft/s at 6000 and 92 ft/s at 8000.

That’s the slow end of the manifold. 8 times as much air goes through the 90mm TB. Same calculation nets us 108 ft/s at 6000 and 144 ft/s at 8000. That’s 100mph!

But even at an average of only 90 feet per second, the air goes from throttle valve to end of the runner in 0.015 seconds. I guesstimated a foot and a half of distance inside the manifold. Either way the time spent is very short.

How much would you imagine the air heats up in the wide open channels of an aluminum manifold after 0.015 seconds? It’s not going to be 10 degrees. Even one degree is starting to sound like a lot considering a “hot” standard manifold is 145F and you have to subtract ambient from that to get the delta T.

Whichever gain/drop you get in air temperature is a small fraction of the total drop in manifold temp. On my car I logged IAT before the manifold as being roughly 10C over ambient. Making delta T with the intake manifold even smaller.

And there’s another angle:

Mass air flow during hard acceleration for a stock RS4 will be between 200 and 300 grams of air per second. The MAF tells us that. Air has a specific heat capacity of (near as makes no difference) 1 kJ per kg per degree K or C.

At an average flow rate of 250 g/s under hard acceleration the manifold would need to transfer 250 J per second to raise air temperature by ONE degree. Now, you’re not going to notice one degree difference. 5 maybe. I’ve seen people claim 10 degrees (not here, different brands) from spacers.

To achieve a 10 degree lower intake temp the stock setup would have to be transferring 2500J every second to the air. Considering the specific heat capacity of Al is slightly lower than air at around 930J/kg/K and the manifold weighs what, 5 kg? (someone know?) it would be transferring heat so quickly that every 2 seconds the manifold itself would cool down more than a degree C. A bit of fun on an on-ramp and the manifold would have lost 10 degrees supposedly. Obviously it doesn’t work like that. If there was that much heat transfer between the engine and the manifold the manifold would be running a lot hotter - basically as hot as the rest of the engine block is. In reality heat transfer from block to manifold isn’t that brilliant to begin with. It would be running much hotter than 145F if it was.

The intake air does cool the manifold and so the manifold does heat up the air slightly, it’s just that such huge amounts of air pass through it that the actual increase in air temperature is minimal. The math simply does not work if you assume much bigger numbers. So the effect from intake spacers is NOT equal to zero but it will be a small enough amount to render the exercise rather pointless. At least the money vs gain ratio is off the chart.

It is true that there is some performance loss as everything heats up under the bonnet. The intake temp before the manifold can go up several degrees, but this cannot be attributed to the intake manifold. It’s also worth taking in mind that the whole engine runs hotter when you’re thrashing about OR going very slowly. Hotter valves, hotter pistons, hotter cylinder walls,… oil temp is a pretty good if slightly delayed indicator. The detonation threshold becomes lower at higher temps and ignition timing will become slightly less advanced. The intake manifold is the wrong place to look for solutions to the supposed problem.

I’ve seen phenolic spacers sold for all kinds of cars over time and never was there an actual agreement or properly organized testing of them. My turbo Volvo with a decent intercooler had an intake manifold that ran only a few degrees over ambient when I was thrashing it about. The faster you went the colder it got. No spacer. The only difference is that it was mounted at the front of the engine rather than on top, meaning little convection. And spacers do nothing against convection anyway.

Bottom line if you tuned out halfway:

  • Air, which has poor heat transfer properties but a large specific heat capacity, spends only a few hundredths of a second in the warm intake manifold at most.
  • Delta T between the air going into the manifold and the manifold temp is relatively small. It’s not a hundred degrees, far less. And you can only expect to heat the air a fraction of the delta T in 0.01-0.03 seconds.
  • The very small drop in air temperature should not have a noticeable effect on engine performance thus the mod is not worth the money from this perspective. If it makes you feel better, go and buy them, it can’t hurt. But you’re only really doing the company selling it a favor.

Cool(er) material leads to a cooler boundary layer vs. hot air. You’re looking at the wrong variables.

Great write-up, you are very book smart.

I just have a question…

Why do people ice their manifolds at the drag strip across all platforms?

http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/8907065+w620+re0/mmfp_0712_34_z%2Btrickflow_ford_mustang_two_valve_intake_manifold%2Bice_bags.jpg

http://image.sporttruck.com/f/techarticles/0909st_12_ways_to_win_a_drag_race/26966268+w799+h499+cr1+ar0/0909st_07_z%2Bsport_trucks_12_ways_to_win_a_drag_race%2Bengine.jpg

I guess I just don’t understand how icing the manifold and dropping it’s temperature to gain a little horsepower, isn’t the same as installing spacers and consistently having a lower intake manifold temperature.

The spacers are a constant advantage, daily driving or some type of racing. I can agree that they don’t have a huge impact but you’re trying to say these are snake oil. If JHM tested these and they did nothing, they wouldn’t sell them, it’s really that simple. If they were only doing this for financial gain they’d also probably be shoving open element intakes down our throats along with the tornado air intake tubes…lol

Exactly koolade always good to have you pop in. Let me school you on JC he has something called facpinions it’s where he tries to tie his opinions into facts. I would have to write something twice as long just to explain how wrong each point it.

A fun and easy way to do it is like this.

Someone send a email to all the people who have seen a recorded performance gain from spacers and let them know they and there proof is wrong lol

Reduction of heat is why you see things like intercooler units dropping the air temperature has performance benefits that’s why so many people strive to drop intake Temps and preventive heat soaking ideas. Intake spacers are one way to do that your taking what race teams have done for years and applying it to your street car.

I used to stick blocks of dry ice in between my Edelbrock Air Gap manifold lol.

Phenolic is a wonderful material.

That’s sounds pretty cool. I actually started designing a new snorkel intake that could be installed and pulled out really easily to load it up with dry ice or freeze it for my car. I never got my OEM one back. I’m assuming because it no longer fit?

I don’t think I am. What does a cooler boundary layer achieve precisely in this context?

Conservation of energy is irrefutable. If the air inside the manifold is heating up, it must be transferred. Whatever moves TO the air has to come FROM the manifold. We can calculate pretty precisely how much energy is required to heat up the air by one degree at different air flow rates.

The amount of heat which has to transfer from engine to manifold ends up being way too large a number if you plug in multiple degrees C “air heating”. That kind of transfer would have the manifold running much hotter in normal operation than what it actual measurements have shown.

The ice bag on the manifold thing, cooling down the intake well below ambient is increasing delta T quite massively. During long periods of idle (before a drag race) it will certainly help a little. Not a lot. And it will only make a noticeable difference at the very start when air flow is low. As soon as the revs are high enough there’s nothing to be gained.

If you want to chase one or two degrees of intake temp improvement, ditch the aux radiator on the intake side and run a funnel from the front of the car to the power flap. Ensuring you suck in the coldest possible air will do a lot more than some spacers.

Just to add: if anyone could tell me the mass of the intake manifold it would be useful for improving accuracy.

When I get to Europe in summer I’ll try to do some temp measurements on the manifold and engine block in various situations which should allow to calculate fairly accurately the thermal conductivity of the (standard) connection between the manifold and the head.

Once we have that the calculation for air temperature increase inside the manifold will become pretty accurate and irrefutable.

JC, once again, you’re stuck on IAT. Here’s a hint: You need to look at air flow. The boundary layer is turbulent air, the hotter it gets, the more turbulent it becomes. The intake air charge rides that boundary layer like a slip-n-slide…would you like your intake charge on a hot, bumpy slip-n-slide, or a cooler, denser, smoother slip-n-slide… That’s over-simplified, but again, change your variables if you wish to play the math game.

Thanks koolade it’s nice to have a big technical back up. Just so you know your dealing with a very uneducated version of aurtherPE…also to add to the mix audi used heat shielding on the b6 and b7 intake manifolds on the underside where you see extreme Temps.

[quote=“justincredible,post:10,topic:7232”]
No problem Justin, I’m here to help! I miss Arthur, I haven’t had a good argument about carbon buildup in awhile, haha!

[quote=“koolade9,post:11,topic:7232”]

Those were epic and I appreciated your deep commitment to actually trying to help him and others. I also appreciate seeing you helping out here again. It is sometimes disturbing to see good information being twisted into the completely wrong direction. But it’s always gratifying to see those like your self help explain the flaws and try to help sort the people that are looking to learn in the actual right direction.

Member karma for you.

PS i love your car.

The comment I post below basically sums up JC’s actual experience. He can try to impress us all he wants with his book smarts and how he tries to prove everything on paper, but some of us actually have experience with these products…on these 4.2s. We all know that the biggest deficit this motor faces is heat soak in its tiny cramped engine bay, so why not look for alternatives to cool the motor down a little. No one has ever said that this mod will net you 15hp or any crazy overstatement of performance, but cooling the manifold significantly has to help…and has actually been proven to help.

[quote=JC]I’ve seen phenolic spacers sold for all kinds of cars over time and never was there an actual agreement or properly organized testing of them. My turbo Volvo with a decent intercooler had an intake manifold that ran only a few degrees over ambient when I was thrashing it about. The faster you went the colder it got. No spacer. The only difference is that it was mounted at the front of the engine rather than on top, meaning little convection. And spacers do nothing against convection anyway.
[/quote]
Basically he has only seen these spacers and has never actually run them or tested them himself. This kind of reminds me of his exhaust theories and tune theories…because that is what most of this is, JC’s theories and opinions, which he tries to back up with detailed technical jargon and physics. He actually has no direct experiences, just thoughts.

In his opinion these will not work because his turbo Volvo…with AN INTERCOOLER (and probably an IM that sits directly behind the radiator)…only ran a few degrees over ambient while running it hard (without any spacers). That is a horrible…a fucking horrible example to compare to a 4.2l normally aspirated V8 that was shoe horned into an engine bay. No matter how much technical or scientific information you recite can overcome a comparison like that.

This is a poorly thought out argument. Audi is restricted in many ways and leaves plenty on the table in many areas of design, with respect to top performance. Assuming they got 10/10ths out of design knowing they are restricted is comical.

Also, the whole thought process behind this post is capricious and malicious. It’s a troll job really. You perceive a number of the people on the site with whom you’ve had differences as JHM fans, and are attacking a JHM product in order to, in some way, get back at those people. That is absurd, childish behaviour. Very quattrofail of you (have you not joined there yet?)

Reality is that we have a couple of choices on the topic of phenolic spacers

  1. listen to you, who says phenolic spacers are useless because your interpretation of a few physics principles (and zero testing) tells you they ‘probably’ are

  2. listen to JHM, who says there are beits to having them in place, and who tested the heck out of them before making that assertion. They have also tested the heck out of a number of other products and thrown them in the bin because gains didn’t warrant putting their name on it.

  3. listen to countless race teams over the past 50 years who agree with JHM

I think it’s a pretty easy decision as a consumer. Reality is you have done zero testing. You’re posting theory, and again, not only theory, but your interpretation of that theory, which one member has said is incorrect in this application. For my money saying something ‘probably doesn’t do anything’ is hardly a compelling argument, especially when there is zero testing behind it, and when the person saying it may not be exactly honest in their intentions.

Go do some testing and then present your results.

Sounds like he has not really driven his car and popped the hood.

When I work on my car in the winter, I pop the hood and it heats up my double garage, in Canada, in about 30 minutes. The intake manifold is almost untouchably hot after any period of driving, be it repeated track laps, repeated dragstrip runs, or driving home from work at 40 mph.

An example is Mistro and I went on a 40 minute drive to a race track. When we arrived, we popped our hoods to help the car cool down while we went through paperwork and setting up cameras and prepping the cars etc. My intake manifold was super hot and you couldn’t keep your hand on it for more than 1 second without it being uncomfortably hot. His intake manifold, with JHM intake spacers, was barely warm, and I could easily put my hand on it for as long as I wanted.

If my intake was 'only a few degrees over ambient ', my skin would have been falling off because I’d have been outside in 150 degree heat.

What does the mass of the manifold have to do with anything? Knowing the mass of the manifold will only help if you are trying to find out how good of a conductor the manifold is, you would also have to know exactly how much heat is being applied to the manifold and the exact volume of air along with the elevation and change in air temperature. The conductivity of metal always stays the same. Find out what its made of just look it up in a text book. Just check the temperature of air before and after contact with the intake manifold. There is your proof on the effect of the manifold on the air passing through it.

Mass… in all honestly the surface area is far more pertinent. Why would you even ask that?

Here JC i’ll throw you a bone.
http://www.myaudis4.com/phenolic-spacers/
http://www.myaudis4.com/ecs-tuning-intake-manifold-gasket/

I saw a lot of graphs and talk…not much else. Those comparisons are also on a turbo charged car with a intercooler…not the same.

Let’s stick to the fact that we know these drop the intake manifold surface temperature dramatically (the difference between burning your skin off and being comfortable is probably an easy 50 degrees)

These allow for more consistent power and reduction of heatsoak, which I will keep repeating is a HUGE problem in the 4.2 world.

The only difference is the volume of air passing through the manifold which would be very relevant, if you are talking about air passing through a manifold wether volume of air pressurized or not kind of like metal has a calculateable level of conductivity (Air, atmosphere (gas) 0.024 W/(m)) that’s Watts/m in you can use btu/hr ft in america. thus whether it is na or turbo the effect of heat given on it is also calculatable. If you would bother to read the post it goes on to explain how little difference the effect of spacer actually had on the over all temperatures. But ok fine feel free to negate any sort of actual proof that might have any relevance to this discussion. If you going to make claims back them up with proof we have this thing called the internet it takes me no time to call bullshit so rather than theorize test experiment show results don’t speculate I want proof until you give me some your opinions don’t mean shit.