Interesting question. This is from another thread. APR has had some new great products but we dont see anything for the b8 s4…no dsg no new technology for blutooth and most noticed no stage 3…the two questions are why and is this impacting the b8 market for apr…
Making a stage 3 for the rs5 seems like a bad idea when you look at production vs the b8 s4…even the rs4 might not have been a really great investment depending on the finial price…the b8 s4 is the most dominate s4 in the last 20 years. APR has been quick with its stage 3 kits in the past. The b5 stage 3 was ready less then two years after that csr launched. The 2.0t stage 3 kits have been ready within 1 to 2 years of those cars production the ttrs stage 3 same thing…now the b8 S4 4 years later no stage 3…
Good or bad…is APR putting too much efforts into the wrong platforms…
[quote]To be honest, I feel bad for the 3.0T guys. This stage III kit was initially promoted as being for their platform…must be a year ago now. Then the RS5 and R8 jumped in front of the line, which I guess was annoying for the B8 S4 guys, but hey, them’s the breaks. Now, out of the blue, the first car with the kit to show anything is the B7 RS4 and the B8 has been pushed back a couple more times.Here’s the first thing we saw, December 2012.
[/quote]
Ha. Well said. maybe cloch can fix the spelling lol but it gives a jfunkey signature.
I don’t mind if you move the posts here. To me though, it’s more like, is the B8 S4 losing their big shot owners and their disposable aftermarket income to new platforms. I personally feel the B8 S4 just isn’t as compelling as the B7 in terms of pure charm, especially considering the thirst for a v8 and or inline-5 by others. And I can’t see people sticking around waiting for a premium stage III blower, but rather the cheaper, younger second generation coming in and pushing the lower-priced stage III alternatives.
After the RS4 went 10s, the B8 S4 launch is shaping up to be a little anti-climatic.
Edit: oh i see, the thread title? But I think Chrisk can edit that as well.
This is where I disagree with you. There are no Stage III alternatives. APR’s kit is the only thing on the horizon, right? There’s just nothing else. Why won’t the second generation of B8 S4 buyers be just as willing to throw down on APR’s blower? I don’t get it.
Unfortunately APR doesn’t have anyone pushing them on the three 0 tee the way the do on the RS4, so I’m not sure.
Based on competition driving advancement, I say the R8 and RS5 are next. I think Arin said a while ago that was the way it was supposed to go (R8, RS5, B8 S4) but that seems to have all changed with an RS4 kit out now and no real clear indication of a timeline for the other cars.
The R8 has some competition but early on it was from outside the Audi tuner world (million dollar twin turbo kits charging hefty R8 tax). Then there’s the VF jokers (last week I asked them for data on their R8 kit on 6speed where they were pimping it and guess what…nothing. More vague promises of performance testing etc).
MRC is now developing a twin supercharged solution for the R8 (two medium sized Cfuges) and a turbo kit on the in house MRC R8 4.2. So I imagine APR won’t want to dilly dally on the R8 1740
Then the RS5 is coming out of the blocks and there’s already a few cars PES supercharged (using a massive whipple blower…2.3L I believe).
What’s out there in B8 S4 land to push APR to hurry things…Jconz? lol
So i reckon they will continue to take their time. As clochner said for every 81bear they lose they pick up an auditude or someone so I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom. Maybe for the early adopters it feels that way. I remember when I felt like the B67 S4 had plateaud a bit and I sold mine and bought an RS4. I thought ‘ah well, JHM missed that opportunity’. Well I’m going to visit JHM next week and they’ve got half a dozen built motors ready for B67 S4 owners, including a few installed on customers cars around the world and a couple on site that are being tested even further. The platform just keeps evolving once you leave it. As clochner said, it’s not going anywhere (other than up)
Cloch, There is no stage III period… Only talk of it.
Let’s say stage III for the B5 started with K04s. While a few people initially ponied up for the full RS4 parts and an APR tune at 10K++, eventually everyone and their moms started selling a tune for K04s and modifications to achieve stage III worked its way to the lowest common denominator. Eventually you could get anything to work and stage III cost about $2200 for the turbos and $1700 for fueling.
The same thing will happen with the B8 S4, except APR is missing the early market/big spenders. They will price it at $12K, guess, but that isn’t by ANY means is where it will stop. The blower is not APRs, so you’d have to assume they will lose their exclusivity. Figure on eventually the blower selling for half that, maybe less, within a few years. Plus there will be new ships that will pop up, just like VAST did with the B5. I mean, I don’t see SRM setting the world on fire with the twin charged setup LOL, but don’t be surprised if you see more small players make some strides into the market.
Also don’t forget the blower is a bolt-on. One of these may see a few 3.0T engine bays before retiring…I haven’t heard of anyone “losing” a 1320 yet, so I’d imagine the 1740 will have pretty good resale market to compete with new blowers. Unlike a used turbo, which you’d never ever do on a 2.7T considering the motor pull.
I said the same thing about the JHM kit on the b6/7 s4 years ago. I feel like they lost some of their target audience, but they’re still doing just fine with sales as I understand. The worst part with the JHM kit was you knew 100% it was under way, it just kept getting pushed back, even for beta kits.
As newer cars come out, and they just prove how good they are stock or just a tune, it always makes modifying older models tougher to justify to some people, but at the end of the day there’s usually still buyers lined up, even if it is with credit card balances to match lol.
I think APR would be the best to answer your question since they know exactly how many B8 S4s (stage I and II) they have tuned vs how many B7/B8 4.2 Stage III kits they have out there.
I believe they went first to market with the 1740 for the 4.2 because:
It showed the largest gain / best results for the 4.2 (as compared to the 3.0).
Ease to go from the 1320 to the 1740 because already done it once
Most that purchased the 1320 will likely upgrade to the 1740
Most profitable, can charge a larger premium for the more exclusive car and gains
APR chose not to bring it to market on the B8 S4s first because:
gains were not as impressive as expected
cost does not justify the gain. Arin has said it multiple times that the 4.2s will all see larger gains as compared to the 3.0s
For a pulley and tune, (few thousand dollars) the 3.0s gain a shit ton, whereas this upgrade may yield 50 more hp than their current stage II…75hp at the very most.
Remember the 3.0s don’t have as a robust engine as the RS4, no forged internals from the factory, so if in fact this steps it up to 550’ish hp would be even be reliable?
~$15-18k for another 75hp at the max does not justify this kit. They will likely bring it to the market first for the RS4/R8/RS5 to maximize profit then drop the price point
down some for the 3.0 S4s like they have done previously with the 1320.
Finally, I think the main reason it has yet to come to market is because this much power is causing things to break making R&D that much more complicated
Ha I hate to admit that I worry a lot of what you wrote is correct. Seeing people talk about +100whp for a stage III B8 S4 is funny when the motor is having a hard time choking down the 1320 stage II airflows without pulling timing, except in the coldest weather. Sure there will be efficiencies with a larger blower in the sweet spot, but it’s not like they can push blower pressure ratios that much higher, and we’re already at 2.2 with the 1320. I think 2.4 or 2.5 is the outer envelope pressure for the TVS series as it is…so how people think we will gain any more than 50-70 hp is beyond me.
Stock avg around 300 whp
Stage 1 (Tuned + intake etc) around 340ish
Stage 2 (add a pulley) around 365
?
I think stage 3 would have been around 450 whp on good 93 pump gas. That’s a huge gain. That’s a crazy fast car too. People will do it.
The problem is some of you are thinking the b8 s4 makes 400 whp stage 2 thus going to stage 3 at 450 or something isn’t that good. Problem is it doesn’t make 400 stage 2. Don’t take a pump gas mustang dyno whp # guess for stage 3 and compare it to a race gas, jacked up dyno stage 2 number.
See but the above example has realistic numbers for stage II, but not for stage III. You’re saying it’s an 85 whp gain. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I’d say no…50-70 whp, depending on the weather. Have you ever heard of a TVS cramming in over 22 psig? Me neither.
Let’s say a stage II car with HFCs would be good for a 12.1-12.2 @115 on pump. That’s realistic and not the fastest, and you and I have seen it done in reasonable weather.
There is no way that car with 85 whp more will be doing a 11.4@123 on pump…or Prime or Ryan picking up 85 whp and doing a 11.2-11.3 on pump and hustling the boosted pump RS4 times. Nope…again, I’d love it, but I just can’t see that happening with a blower at a 2.4-2.5 pressure ratio, no matter how deep in the sweet spot it is.
I’d bet too, that the 1320 blower can see an even smaller pulley and we can still squeeze a couple tenths. Then what…how much ahead will a stage III setup be? a few tenths? 40 hp?
I’m sounding a little down on APR, but hey, by all means I’d love someone in the know to come in here and tell me otherwise.
Apex I guess I’d feel a lot better knowing I could sacrifice a blower to an even smaller 20 psig pulley once a bunch of people start upgrading their 1320 and they have it sitting on the shelf. Still waiting to hear about someone who broke their blower on stage II
1.) Agreed
2.) Agreed on those times, if 450 hp…I guess that power level on pump would surprise me…maybe on race gas because it’s such a massive difference haha.
3.) MAP is under the intercoolers, one on each side. Theoretically the lowest pressure you could see in the IM.
You really think? I mean APR advertised 417whp for the S5 and 438whp for the RS4 which yielded 11.9 and 11.8 respectively. 11.40 would be a huge time with 450whp on a otherwise stock setup. I think <11.40 is achievable but not the way they ran their S5/RS4; it needs a full mod list + race gas.
I’m betting they don’t announce it until Arin runs his car <11.30 on race gas, which can be done with a full list of mods (intake, LW wheels, brakes, rotors, exhaust, HFC etc…) and race gas. They need to comfortably beat that 11.6x that their APR S2 cars have set.
Even then, if you compare the bone stock record of 12.69 to APR S2 cars that run low 12.2’ish picking up ~0.5 sec on the quarter mile for a few thousand dollars. Then gain another 0.5-0.6 sec on the quarter mile for the stage III setup on pump for $15k+?
Going to be a hard sell.
If I was already stage II and thinking of going stage III for another $15k+ I would need to see low elevens or even tens on pump to justify the cost. For example, stock S5s run low 13s then stage III high 11s justified the 11k (normally 13k) price that I paid.
However, once Arin runs low elevens on race gas with a full list (maybe even strip the car like the RS4 to get tens) it will create a lot of buzz to the average customer / AZ.
It is hard for APR to compete with their S2 product that has so much bang for the buck already. The consumer (average AZ B8’itis infected) has high expectations and if they don’t produce the numbers it will flop
^
This. The first 100 hp gain is always cheaper than the next 100. With respect to cost, the Stage 3 is obviously going to be a questionable value proposition. However, if the gains are somehow in the 100+ range, it will still be very appealing even if the cost is in the expected $10K+ price point.
APR is not losing any customers by not releasing the kit in what is considered to be a timely manner by members of this forum. If the gains aren’t substantial or if there are reliability issues, then the kit just won’t move. As has already been pointed out, there is no other stage 3 option out there or on the horizon so they won’t be losing customers to another tuning company for this product. If someone jumps platforms, I doubt it’s because the stage 3 isn’t available yet. Personally, I am waiting to see what stage 3 has to offer before deciding whether to stick with my B8 a bit longer or go to another vehicle.
I don’t really care about APR’s dyno. We have thousands of dyno numbers and APRs don’t line up with many of them. It’s hub vs wheel. It’s a controlled room vs. random ass garage. It’s amazing air refresh and fans vs open garage door letting heat in, and walmart fans. Focus on the hundreds of other dynos we see instead of what APR said.
You can’t forget that they are going 11.9-12.1 stage 2 records on pump. And frankly could be faster if they would actually work on it. Primetime went on pump gas on a lark. If he put his mind to it and spent a couple of weeks trying to make a # on pump gas, I’m confident he’d get an 11.8 @ 116 out of it as the RS4 and S5 did with the 1320. The DSG is retarded for ET, so you can’t forget that.
Talking ET vs. HP is kinda not going to work. Look at MPH. I am confident they can trap 120 on a 1740 on 93 and good mods like primetime. That’s cake for an 11.4 with DSG. You don’t think they’re picking up 4 MPH with that blower?
That’s pretty much what I said. But we know there’s also more than just talk. Arin’s car has the 1740, so it’s definitely in development. My point was that APR’s kit is the only Stage III option “on the horizon.” Whether they release it now (according to your optimal schedule) or 6 months from now seems irrelevant. I don’t think they are losing anyone.
None of this really addresses my basic question: why would a second-generation B8 S4 owner be any less likely to go Stage III than the first owner?
but it gives a jfunkey signature.