It just doesn't work: Tesla

General Discussion
#1

Lots of people rave abotu Teslas, particularly those who own them. Pretty astonishing that an automaker can come out of nowhere, and produce an incredible car that revolutionizes the car business…all in about 10 years.

Or have they?

I’ve often said that electric just doesn’t work. The only way it makes any sense to own an electric car is if you pay a fortune for it to bury the exorbitant costs of making a car this way. This is why Tesla made an upmarket Model S. It’s competing with the Audi A6/BMW 5er and MB E class. It’s $70,000 to start, and around $120,000 if you want the good one. Just like the Germans. Only it’s not as good. It’s not as nice, it’s not as high quality, and frankly, it doesn’t work. It’s fast off the mark though, and that’s about all you’ll ever hear from a Tesla owner or follower (or the company for that matter). “Watch my mom’s face when I accelerate at a green light!!” (even though my cupholder plastic is flaking off after 9 months and the AC won’t come on without the radio being on AM)

The germans use high powered petrol and diesel engines. Want economy? Their 2.0T and 3.0T diesels have you covered. They’ll take you 500 miles on $60 of fuel, and if you need to ‘re-charge’ you can do so in 3 minutes at one of 80,000 gas stations in every city. Want performance? Get an M, RS or AMG. Still great ‘range’, but now it looks great, sounds great, and goes like crazy.

The electric model, the Tesla S, says that you don’t need petrol…you just recharge. How much is that? Well if you breakdown delivery costs, kwh costs you’re probably at $10-20 per charge. About $40 in Hawaii. That charge will probably get you 150-250 miles, depending on how you drive it. If you charge it and leave the car each night without plugging in (like a normal car) and just commute with it, your range shrinks drastically. Owners reported around 100 miles per charge. Tesla said they were going to create a software update to change that. They didn’t. It’s still deplorable. To get good range, you need to drive 200 miles plus in one shot. Slowly. If you go fast, your range shrinks drastically. If you add passengers, your range shrinks drastically. So it’s kinda cheaper for electricity than it is for German car petrol or diesel…but not really significantly cheaper.

And when you’re buying a $70,000+ car, are you really all that worried about saving $1500/year on fuel for your conveyance? I don’t think you are.

The other problem with Tesla S, is that in order for my neighbour to buy one and for Tesla to pretend it is good business, the government takes tax dollars from everyone on the street and gives a grant to my neighbour and gives further grants to Tesla. THis can be as much as $13,000 depending where you live. For what…for a guy to buy a fancy car? WTF? I don’t remember getting that when I bought my Audis. Oh, but the Tesla is good for the environment. Riiiight…so that electricity doesn’t come from coal fired generators or whatever your region uses. And those batteries don’t ruin the air quality in sudbury and fuck the lakes up when they’re mining for the key components of the gigantic, expiring batteries.

I guess the fact is the government has for whatever reason decided that shitty environmental impacts of electric cars are better because they’re not buying oil and sending money to Saudi Arabia who flew jets into US landmarks 14 years ago next month.

Problem with that explanation is that America is now the largest oil producer on earth, and doesn’t really do much oil business with the middle east. IT gets its imported oil from Canadian oil sands now. So now what?

“We’re supporting a great, viable American business”

Last time I checked their financials, Tesla hasn’t paid a nickel in taxes, whereas Ford, GM and Chrysler Corp have employed a gigantic number of Americans for decades…and paid an absolute fortune in taxes.

Why isn’t Tesla paying any tax? Because you have to make money to pay tax. What is Tesla doing?

Tesla is losing $4,000 for every car they sell.

Wait…what? THey’re losing money on these things…even though they are overcharging, they’re getting government grants, their customers are getting government grants…???

How are they running the business? They’re burning cash and selling a pipe dream, mainly generated by selling stock at grossly optimistically inflated prices to retail investors.

Good stuff.

#2

I’d triple karma you if I could. That right there is the greatest takedown ever of Tesla. They are by definition parasitic - they are viable only to the extent they can suck on the teat of the taxpayer.

In the States, the Republicans are emphasizing this as what it is: crony capitalism. And it’s championed by the very people who “claim” to advocate for the “ordinary person.” You know, the Paul Krugman types. This is where Milton Friedman’s statement always rings true: as a libertarian (and a true right-winger), he was never “pro-business.” He was pro-free market. The two are completely exclusive.

We should sticky this this thread.

#3

The key metric in my eyes is this

Tesla
Market Cap - 30 Billion
Deliveries Q2 - 11.5 Thousand Vehicles

GM
Market Cap - 50 Billion
Deliveries Q2 - 2,505.9 Thousand Vehicles

I’m no analyst, but that is fucking nuts!

And if you write that metric off because luxury brand, Porsche delivered 20.7 thousand cars in July alone, so extrapolate that to 62 thousand vehicles in Q2.

#4

This whole electric and hybrid bullshit is just an excuse for the government to taxes even more.

The worse part is the solution itself, the batteries. It generates enough CO2 (mine, ship the minerals to China, manufacturing, ship back to the U.S., freight, assembly) to dwarf the co2 production of a up to epa standards vehicle of today… In its entire lifespan.

Mining metals for batteries is the new gold/oil/diamond rush… It’s where the money really is. We have in our world today self sustaining energy technology (h2o - h - h2o cycle) but every single inventor that decided to make this main stream have been shut down or silenced. This is a proven fact.

If I see two 50 year old, guy or girl, that just bought a sport car, one a fancy Audi/bmw/merc/lambo/Ferrari, and the other one a souped up tesla, I will have a lot more respect for the petrol burner… Not because I drive a petrol engine, but because that person worked his whole life and decided that being a hypocrite was not in his future.

#5

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324128504578346913994914472

#6

One aspect we are forgetting is that driving an EV in CA gives you HOV access. That is huge.

Take the bay area peninsula as an example - massively congested with HWY’s that cannot handle the population boom. People can no longer afford housing, thus work commutes can be substantial. The state is essentially allowing you to buy your way into the fast lane, kind of like spending the extra $80 at an amusement park to get to the front of the line.

#7

You can buy a Prius, a hybrid Honda, Volt, etc for much cheaper and accomplish that same goal. Plus the total mileage per recharge/refuel will be much higher again because you have an easily refillable gas tank. A good friend’s dad that lives in Oakland CA got a Volt for that very reason. “Plus no one is likely to steal such a POS,” his words.

EDIT: They used to do the same thing around the DC area too but they found that it actually made traffic worse so they put an end to that. By the way, the Washington DC area has had terrible traffic for years and for a while it was the worst in the country. Haven’t checked recently but I am willing to bet that it is probably still in the top three.

#8

True, although you have to get the plug-in version (which you essentially said). I do know that there is a quota for PZEV vs unlimited for EV’s (ILEV). No idea if the numbers are near the quota threshold though. My dad bought a prius back in the day for this very reason and his HOV sticker was voided a few years ago.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

#9

none of us are forgetting that. I’m not saying the cars themselves don’t have their merit, be it amazing low speed acceleration or HOV access or marginal annual ‘fuel’ savings. I’m saying the $$$ just doesn’t work at the business level, and is a big runaround funded by taxpayers paying for their neighbours’ cars…and that makes no frigging sense.

Will be interesting to see if the German government gives Tesla and Tesla buyers 15 thousand euros for every Tesla sell. I imagine they will instead scoff at the concept and point to the way a diesel engine works.

I once watched a boring ass car show on PBS and the host interviewed Porsche’s head of hybrid technology. German guy who walked through the industry leading hybrid system they put into the Cayenne. The host asked what percentage of sales the hybrid would generate on the Cayenne in the American market. The Porsche guy said ‘we anticipate approximately 50% once we have gone through a full model cycle.’. The host followed up with 'And what do you think hybrid penetration would be in Europe?.

The Porsche guy…head of hybrid tech for the company remember…just looked at the hose and chuckled ‘I would suspect nearly zero’. The host seemed shocked at this revelation and asked why, and the Porsche guy very matter of factly said ‘well, it’s simple…we embrace diesel’

Funny stuff.

#10

That said, the tide seems to be turning on diesel in Europe now.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:il7S4JVqVMcJ:www.ft.com/cms/s/0/627c6812-7faf-11e4-adff-00144feabdc0.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#axzz3iQegaKHR

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30381223

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/11280067/London-will-follow-Paris-and-ban-diesel-cars-campaigners-warn.html

#11

the tide is turning on 20 year old diesels

#12

Did you read any of the articles I linked? It’ll take time for it to go into full swing but opinions are beginning to change (at least government ones) regarding diesel in general (not just old diesel tech).

Anyway, this diesel talk is a tangent on Tesla and electric vehicles.

#13

Yes I did. Did you? Because if you had, you’d see it’s a bunch of political posturing by a couple of mayors who are being raked over the coals for their weak environmental commitment. No legislation, just ‘we are going to do this!’ and they’re talking about 5 years from now…aka when the next Parisian election is (Boris Johnston is just jumping on the Parisian bandwagon)

Further, they are just talking, and there are no regulations or anything in detail.

The thoughts are that clean diesels will be fine, and that older technology will come under fire. For example 2006 and earlier was floated.

Maybe you missed that?

Do you really think the European automakers are going to stand back and watch their econo diesel customers give up on their cars and buy scooters and motorbikes? The French government has a huge stake in renault, and the Europeans are big employers with huge lobby power. Just watch.

#14

Tesla is simply a cap and trade play with “CAFE” credits.

I believe the main source of “profit” is not from selling cars…

#15

Interesting discussion. My big concern with the electric vehicles has always been the batteries. They don’t last long, the mining and finally the disposal. What a mess.

Diesel engines keep getting better. I get about 800km from $40 of diesel on my daily commute.

#16

That’s pretty incredible considering our gas prices are 20-30% worse than Americans due to our gas taxes (not talking currency… I’m assuming you meant 40 usd or 52-55 cdn)

#17

This thread is so precisely on point
sakimano, you are absolutely right about Tesla

Just want to put my .02 in
Audi, BMW, MB are not making an electric car yet only because it will not hold up to their high standards. Simply because the value of the car like Tesla for the money it would cost to make one is not even close to what German Big Three have to offer now (at least for me). Compared to Tesla they all are industrial giants, especially Audi with the whole of Volkswagen AG behind it, so it would be really silly to assume they have not prototyped and/or unable to build what Tesla Model S is. They absolutely can with all of their knowledge and experience but choose not to, whilst working on something better.

Yes, electric cars overall are cheaper to run because electricity is cheaper than fuel, but I don’t know a single person and can hardly imagine one that would buy $100K+ car and care about a $1500 yearly saving on fuel, this argument is only valid for the Tesla fan club, those who aspire to own one, but can’t afford it.

I think electric cars can be faster than petrols and diesels, and Tesla is very fast of from the stand still, but runs out of steam very quickly. It can’t even finish a full Nordshleife lap at full speed because the battery overheats (sorry for not providing the source, too lazy, it took Model S about 10 minutes to get to the finish, iirc)

I think Tesla concentrates on show off way to much, with all that “ludicrous speed” and “insane mode” stuff.
Their target audience is the new tech guys, who are really not into cars, but for whom Tesla is a gadget. I do software for life and it’s very easy to notice it in the attitude of people who have one. “Look, it can connect to my iPhone!” Who the fuck cares about that? “It has a giant touch screen!” Well, thanks, no, now I need to take my eyes of the road to do very simple stuff. “Look, it has a frunk!” What’s the point? I can’t put a suitcase in it. “You can put 7 people in it, two children in the back!” To start with, do you really intend to ever carry 7 people? I would not put my children in the trunk if I had children, plus, if you put 7 people in, you are out of trunk space, because you can’t put shit into the frunk, it’s useless. “It has handles that move out of the door!” Well, my S5 rolls the window down a bit when I open the door, I don’t run around shouting about it in social media posts. Also some guy in Norway was complaining that these handles froze shut.

It’s a bunch of fucking gimmicks for people who know nothing about cars. The performance is fully concentrated on gimmicks as well, for traffic light races. Interior quality is just poor compared to pretty much anything for the same price.

As for the ecology, our batteries are still shit and are very harmful for the environment to make, but as we slowly move to hydro/wind/solar from burning stuff electricity will eventually become cleaner.
Same shit as with Prius, any decent diesel will get better MPG and will be cheaper and less harmful. But in the US we don’t get diesel. Great marketing for hybrids, lots of hype, sigh.

I really want to see great electric cars, and when Audi makes one, I’ll probably buy it when it becomes available, because I know it will be not worse than what I drive now. Tesla just doesn’t cut it for a good car.

A funny story to end the post. We have a company car show that is held annually for charity. This year it was close to 300 cars, all sorts of, American classics from 70s, 60s, 50s, hell even 30s, amazing old European cars, like Mercedes 300SL Gullwing, new exotics, track toys (Caterhams, Lotuses, Atoms, etc.), a great line-up of Porsches, all generation of 911s, many Ferrari’s, pretty much every car is unique. And lots of people walking around, talking to owners, taking pictures. And then there’s a place where no one really goes, where about 5-7 Model S cars are located, side by side. Only owners jerking each other off, no one is interested :slight_smile:

#18

It just doesn’t work - on a cold winter morning.

Another battery problem. Cold. When it’s minus a billion on a February morning in Canada, if your petrol car won’t start it’s because of the battery.

Imagine a week of sustained sub zero. You’d be charging daily and barely getting anywhere.

#19

Holy Crap - a January put option contract on TSLA at $235 will cost you $25. (And a $210 contract will cost you $14…??)

#20

What’s confusing about that?