Great point, but the same guy asking for all of this definitive proof is…
He is asking for all of the proof from JHM, but doesn’t demand it from others. What proof did he have when he chose a guy to tune his RS6 I wonder?
So Engineer of you ;). Maybe there is a tuner that can do it as good. If there is, the community has not been made aware of it and you don’t seem to be suggesting anyone in particular. You’re dying for a “proven fact” and will not submit to an “accepted fact”. It’s good enough for the other enthusiasts here - I’m not saying that that should make it automatically good enough for you but maybe trying to ram your personal logic down everyone’s throat isn’t that great either?
If you just want to try to win an argument by blurring common sense with your own unrealistic criteria, just say so.
So at least you admit it. You are in fact asserting a claim - namely, that there is no realistic way to prove that one tune is faster than another. That’s a sort of a convenient nihilism that perhaps gives you some self-satisfaction while allowing you to argue until you’re blue in the face. Fortunately, most people can see through that and do in fact believe that tunes are measurable.
I’ll tell you one thing is for sure, tuning companies must love potential customers of your persuasion. Since nothing is provable, everything is valuable.
Sorry I thought you were smarter. Apparently not. You seem to miss any real point. From what you’ve posted I guess sadly it’s not surprising. So you don’t address the point you know I’m making you resort to intellectual inferiority and single out the phrases. You still haven’t shown a faster car.
I sorta lol at that too when he mentioned the irony cop out.
Exactly
More people that get it.
In the end I suppose people like JC are willing to loose all credibility to try and win am argument. There’s one born every minute I suppose. In the end the bar is set and the standards have been set and tested. The conversation he keeps going on about it proof but as I said prove jhm isn’t the fastest…bottom line is he can’t so the intellectual submission is to default to asking for a never defined scope of needed information.
Oh well. JCviggen if your car still has issues let us know.
I do think it’s funny that he’s comfortable ignoring the success jhm has had and inferring there is nothing definitive to say they are, as some here believe, best.
Then in the same thread he says he is trusting his car to a tuner who has never tuned an rs4 before lololol…nevermind has he proved his merit.
The one point he kept referring to is the cheap cost of his tune. I guess out of one side of his mouth he’s an engineer demanding the best, but when the rubber meets the road he’s looking for the lowest cost provider.
It’s technically possible but practically difficult. That’s the reality of it.
What everyone here is ignoring is that the metrics for measuring performance in Europe are notably different from the US. There are hardly any dragstrips and no culture of drag racing at all. I have asked several times precisely which “imperical data” has been used to conclude that MRC cars are inherently slower than JHM cars and it seems to be problematic to reproduce.
I am not convinced that an RS4 which does 450 bhp on MRC’s magic dyno would perform noticeably worse in a race against a JHM tuned car if all other mods are similar - and the stock cars performed similarly as well. Maybe it would, and that would settle it. But it’s never been done, so who knows.
Using the same logic as is being used here I could conclude RS4s which were shipped to the US are faster than any other. After all, Saki’s car has the world record for a stock car. What a remarkable coincidence that of the thousands of RS4s sold, the world record is held by the same bloke who maintains the list. There is as much data to “prove” cars sold in the EU are slower than there is to prove that JHM > MRC.
To settle this you could do it a couple of ways.
It seems very plausible that JHM has been established as the best tuner by far on your side of the pond but no true comparison with the rest of the world has ever been made. With what I know about ECU tuning, it seems unlikely that a single tuner would find a significantly better way of tuning a car than any of the others who have spent hundreds of hours on the same type of car. (particularly one with a significant following in terms of aftermarket tuning)
There is no such thing as magic. Nor is there a way to keep it a secret. Binary code doesn’t lie.
Because it’s a temporary solution. I’m not going to pay top dollar only to overwrite the map into oblivion in 6 months.
How hard do you think it is to remap throttle body behavior? Not very. It’s worth a bit of money to get it done until I get the car back to Europe. But it’s not worth 750$+. What’s so crazy about that?
Your own car is proof that the stock mapping is absolutely fine for making good power. Code out the silly throttle limitation and it’s a great map. I don’t like the car feeling this dead in the first half of the rev band so I’m willing to pay some money to change that issue. It’ll probably match your car in the 3-8K test after which is decent enough to say the least. As you’ve not so far bought a tune I will go out on a limb and assume that you agree the level of performance is acceptable.
Saki is still CPO, so that is probably the reason he hasn’t been tuned yet, I think.
I also can’t believe how closed minded you are on your idea that[quote] it seems unlikely that a single tuner would find a significantly better way of tuning a car than any of the others
[/quote]
That is like saying everyone in your field is on the same level…and that can’t change. So you are only as good as everyone else, you aren’t any better and can’t be. You can’t be smarter, you can’t put extra effort into your work, your end product will never be better. (Do you realize how retarded that sounds?)
In the domestic world there are probably tens of thousands of tuners, from professionals to basement bobos, but the big names rise to the top because they are better than everyone else. They have the fastest cars and tune the most cars. They are better than everyone else because tuning is way more than “simple coding” mindset you apparently have.
***You’re basically saying everything people said in 2009-10. They said the N/A B6/7 S4 would never do THIS, THAT or the OTHER. They said, “How can JHMs N/A tune be so much better than the rest, you can only pull so much power from an N/A motor?” Do you know what happened? JHM demolished all the other tunes in head to head races, 1/4mile times, etc. Your thinking becomes flawed though when you start using the dyno as an exact measuring stick. I can agree that they have their place as a tool, but they mean nothing when it comes to actual driving and acceleration dynamics in the real world. We have actually seen plenty of cars (similarly modded) dyno the same or better than JHM cars, only to loose an actual race by 4-5 car lengths.
Just recently JHM entered the 2.0T A4 game and like usual, the same mentality exists. So far JHM has easily taken over the spots for top times, they also have customers with less mods making videos against other tuned cars with more modifications with them easily pulling a few cars in a single gear.
You just like to talk… a lot… about nothing, or all of the “what ifs” …typical.
[quote=“euroswagr,post:133,topic:6786”]
It’s not simple coding, and it takes a lot of time. But it is a relatively simple logical process once you know all the ins and outs of a specific car’s ECU software (the part with that doesn’t get rewritten).
Every capable tuner out there can see exactly what JHM has done to their maps if they feel they’re missing a trick somewhere. There’s no way to hide it.
About 2 years ago I was at a large tuner (Porsche, but still) and they quite literally had just about every tune I’ve ever heard of on their computer. You load them into the editing software and it’ll make your life very easy by highlighting (or using a different colour) the bits that are different.
Even my RS6 has a mixed MTM/MRC gearbox map. I had previously bought an MTM gearbox chip and upon examination it had a couple of changes in the “D” program which MRC’s didn’t. He couldn’t tell right away what they did without looking it up so he just asked me which version I wanted. He mashed the maps together in all of 2 seconds. Copy pasting works.
There is absolutely nothing preventing tuners from doing this. Respected tuners who are very dedicated to a particular type of car will be aware of every trick anyone’s ever come up with. Intellectual property doesn’t really apply either. Geographic separation avoids wars from breaking out fortunately.
this is where your ignorance is showing. That’s like saying thoracic surgery is a simple logical process once you know all the ins and outs of a persons internal organs.
You make it sound like you just have to read a couple of books, change the throttle, change the timing, and you’re done.
GIAC and APR change 4 or 5 parameter sets on their RS4 tune for example. These are two of, if not the two largest tuners in the Audi world. They adjust timing, AFR, rev limiter, speed limiter, throttle…and that’s it. When I joked in a thread that this is all that APR changes, a representative from APR scoffed and said ‘WELL WHAT ELSE IS THERE?’.
JHM changes well over 100 parameters in their RS4 tune. I’ve spent some time talking to their calibrator and the changes he makes are astounding. Both from a performance point of view, and from a safety and protection point of view. It took him years to develop the B67 S4 tune (it’s about 7 years old now). He has taken that information and carried it forward and now has a full 5-6 years tuning the Rs4, always adding. Before this, he was busy tuning the fastest B5 S4 (K03 record, K04 record, first B5 with an interior in the 10s etc).
But you’re right…it’s relatively simple. Just need to read a book and you’re fastest. Of course MRC, MTM, APR, GIAC haven’t done so yet. We’re all just waiting for them to do these relatively simple things.
p.s. it says a lot that you’re also advocating tune theft in your post. I don’t think you’ll last long here seeing that.
Are you serious? Where am I advocating anything? I said what actually goes on. End of. It’s as much theft in the legal sense as it is when one F1 team copies another team’s front wing design.
I paid for the MTM chip from their official dealer in the US (which has since closed up shop) and I made sure that the chip I bought was the one that got soldered into my TCU.
And yes, there are a ton of things to change outside of the maps. It doesn’t do you much good to change the timing map if the knock sensors and algorithms put it back where you started. But, again, it’s all out in the open.
I am under no illusions just how complex these ECUs are compared to the one I worked with. It’s a different era and they need to be fooled in a lot more ways with each new generation. But at least I have some experience at it.
Dude you keep changing your mind every other post.
It’s simple and logical…then you talk about the complexity of the ECU.
You are probably a mediocre (insert discipline) engineer who needs his hand slapped by a ruler every other day by the guys that actually know what the fuck is going on. This is only my assumption, but it is based on your inability to take a step back and look at the things you’re saying.
You are jut all over the map to be honest, no pun intended.
Knowing the ECU is only a small part of the equation, I think you’re forgetting the b-e-n-e-f-I-t-s of knowing the power plant a tuner is trying to extract power from. IMHO, this is one of the things that separates the professionals from the hobbyists and the “tweakers” from the calibrators…research, revisions, testing…and RESULTS.
Nice RS4! Gotta love that euro look, as the trunk makes the booty so wide in comparison to NA ones. Any plans to completely convert to TI exterior?
It’s interesting to read a nice argument. However, four last pages are extremely tiring to read and really zero new info provided. It’s just the same thing over and over and over ohh and over again. What I would suggest is to go through a lot of research and you shall find an additional info you’re so desperately saying is missing. No one is going to go through the headache of digging it up and spoon feeding the info that has been covered numerous times here and on other forums over last several years. Take your time and search. You’re welcome to draw your own conclusions upon that, but you cannot seriously discount the info shared in the quarter mile list. The quarter mile list as it is now by itself might not be the perfect example of output measurement, but it’s damn near close. I’ll take it over any pretty dyno sheets comparisons or speedo tests by themselves any time of the day. This is what has been compiled over the years of r&d whether it’s by companies or customers themselves, it is what we have now and it’ll grow as more info is put out there. If you find or have more info to share then by all means please do.
It’s really not the case. Let’s educate you.
I live in a province (in canada) that has a population the same Netherlands (aka the 12th most populated country in Europe) and is larger than any country in Europe. Other than Russia (which is mostly in Asia) Ontario is the size of France, Sweden and Greece combined. We have a grand total of 3 dragstrips.
“Oh but Canada is different to the US where drag racing is far more prevalent”
Sure if you want to try more excuses. Let’s test them.
How about california? That’s 40 million people. Same size as all of Poland or all of Spain. Grand total of…3 dragstrips.
Oops.
‘but california isn’t into cars’
Sure, we’ll what about Michigan? Home of Detroit… The car capital of Earth. They don’t call detroit motor city by accident. 10 million people total population in Michigan . The hands down car craziest place in America…must be dozens of 1/4 mile drag strips right?
Nope. 5. Same as in the UK, which is not much bigger land mass either.
Not to mention the dozens of airstrip rental drag racing events across Europe that pop up every weekend in the summer.
This exists across Europe. Ignorant Europeans like yourself make this mistake a lot though, so don’t feel bad.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re arguing about at this point. Counting drag strips per capita and size? And I thought I was being pedantic.
If we look at the topic at hand, RS4s, and the amount of 1/4 mile results you have from them, how big a percentage is from Europe? Shouldn’t take long to count. What is your explanation for the complete lack of times from Europe on your chart if not cultural/practical differences? Just curious.
When European car magazines road test / performance test a car more often than not there won’t be a 1/4 mile time. That alone indicates a difference in what is used as a performance metric which is recognisable to everyone.
Most of Europe is on the metric system anyway so a quarter mile is a bit difficult for us to imagine. Insert Pulp Fiction reference here.
Some magazines will test 200, 400 and 1000 meter times where the middle one is close to a quarter mile but not quite. And trap speeds, if they are measured, is the speed at the end of the run rather than an average over the last xx feet (don’t remember how many)
A good site compiling performance testing from all German magazines used to be einszweidrei.de but they got legally challenged and had to stop doing that. Still, thanks to the interwebs you can still sieve through the data and see the performance tests http://web.archive.org/web/20120218183321/http://www.einszweidrei.de/
Still, it’s pretty far off topic at this point. I said that your sample size for european tuners is too small to draw a conclusion, and I’ve not seen that contradicted. Whichever unofficial data was not included in the list appears very hard to find on youtube, google, or rs246.com directly.
I’ll post updates to my car as they happen, until then I think we can stop going in circles.
Complex and logical are not contradictory. Simple logic can be complex. Computers are entirely logical, it’s all they know. Complexity of ECUs comes down to the sheer number of inputs and algorithms. They are not unpredictable, it’s just a large puzzle.
[quote]You are probably a mediocre (insert discipline) engineer who needs his hand slapped by a ruler every other day by the guys that actually know what the fuck is going on.
[/quote]
I’m fascinated by everyone’s obsession with my personal occupation. I’ve not made any guesses what any of you are doing? Odd.
I don’t work as an engineer. I have my own business and it’s far from engineering related even if my education was somewhat closer to it.
Until you do your homework you will continue to spin around and be ignorant. RTFS already. I had to tell you this on rs246 once already.
You yourself said the 1/4 mile isn’t popular over there and there aren’t many dragstrip. I showed you that you’re wrong, and in fact the 1/4 mile there is about as popular as it is here. You then deflected and ignored that and call the proof pedantic. That’s the only way to crush a pedantic cockroach…is with the boot heel of pedantry. Also interesting is that nobody here has called you pedantic once. You must be so used to that in your daily life that it’s all running together in your brain and you assume it has happened here. That’s what happens in your mid 30s.
Then you again say you want to know why there aren’t more European 1/4 mile times on the list. That has been explained to you MULTIPLE times, but you don’t listen or do your homework. Go read the qualifying process.
You mention that European magazines test 400m…don’t you think that’s odd? Why not 500m? Not a very round number for a metric system based region. Maybe because 400m is within a few feet of the 1/4 mile.
Oh that’s interesting. Must be a coincidence. Must also be a coincidence that the only thing dragtimes.Info has consistently measured over the years is the 1/4 mile.
One of many good posts.
He makes a statement about tuning. We offer the answer
He says he needs proof
We offer proof
He says he needs more proof
We say we have seen the more proof it’s in line with what we have on our list.
He says you need more on the list
We say if your really interested in finding the same data we all did that echos the list go look. No looking just more talking
As I said it’s funny. When you to testing you come to a conclusion based off actual data. The facts we have provided are from actual data. His objection is all about there might be better you don’t know. In any real sport or competition you don’t send the champion of the world to box or fight or play soccer against everyone. You only can fight or compete against those that care to compete and participate. Saying there isn’t data from X OR You company just says they don’t care enough to earn credibility or to show there products work. So to say you need more data just says the people who you don’t have data from are irrelevant. They are like that guy who sits at home saying how great he is even tho he hasn’t done anything
Isn’t it generally considered rude to make uninvited assumptions about other people’s personal lives? I’m making a scientific argument not an emotional one, so it’s entirely uncalled for.
[quote]Then you again say you want to know why there aren’t more European 1/4 mile times on the list. That has been explained to you MULTIPLE times, but you don’t listen or do your homework. Go read the qualifying process.
[/quote]
I had read it, and all it does is confirm my point.
Which is (heads up: pay attention to this bit right here): the list is statistically useless to compare ECU tunes.
If you wanted to have a list that distilled, as accurately as possible, the performance of cars in normalized conditions at the very least you would have to include temperature, altitude, barometric pressure…heck probably throw in dew point and turn it into a single DA figure.
That way, all times and trap speeds could be at least corrected.
Using certified drag strips only ensures that their timing standards are up to snuff. It means you can have a race there and have reliable timing on a level playing field. Even if the strip isn’t level or at 5000 feet above MSL. It does NOT mean you can take a time from any certified track and compare it to one on the other side of the world even when you take (D)A corrections into account (like the NHRA actually does http://www.nhra.com/competition/altitude.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)
Case in point, Santa Pod raceway is actually uphill for example. It’s visible on Google earth but old survey data measured the finish line between 4 and 5 feet higher than the start.
Some tracks are slower than others, some days are slower than others. Certification doesn’t influence that.
Since you keep mentioning that a lot of stuff did NOT make it onto the list…the accuracy of those results is in question making them even less relevant than the list itself.
[quote]You mention that European magazines test 400m…don’t you think that’s odd? Why not 500m? Not a very round number for a metric system based region. Maybe because 400m is within a few feet of the 1/4 mile.
Oh that’s interesting. Must be a coincidence.
[/quote]
Sometimes they test it. You find many more 1000 meter tests and it’s not hard to check at 200 and 400 while they’re at it. Even so, how many numbers are there between 1 and 10? Wouldn’t be a staggering coincidence if it was. Not like Audi selling thousands of RS4s and the fastest ever stock times being done in roughly the same place by a couple of guys who all know each other.
I think it’s a great idea to have that quarter mile list, but you’d have to add several things to it if you ever want to turn it into a scientifically valid tool for comparing performance between cars in different states of tune.
All the words in the world won’t change the science behind it, sorry.
It’s funny reading your posts now. You’re just desperate.
Again the 1/4 mile is not ‘popular’ here either. Same goes for Europe. We were talking about relative popularity and availability of the 1/4 mile as a benchmarking acceleration test and you made it sound like there are dragstrips in every town here and almost none in Europe but reality is different.
Then you surmise that the preponderance of 0-400m testing in European periodicals is a coincidence. Do you hear yourself? Why can’t you just say ‘oh wow I didn’t realise there were so few in North America’ or ‘wow I didn’t realise there were so many in Europe’. No, you will argue to the death with no leg to stand on.
Then you trumped yourself.
You then said the fastest stock rs4 times are all being run by a few guys in the same area. That’s your most ignorant and at the same time most desperate statement yet. Again, let’s educate you.
Sakimano 12.75@108.36 - Toronto, Canada
Jnaut 12.84@107.92 - Palm Beach Florida, USA
RichardJeans 12.88@108.02 Australia
Florida and Toronto are the two closest of that triumvirate and we are the same distance apart as Moscow and Brussels. 2500 kms. Moron.
You’ve also (a couple of times) made an attempt to question my credibility or integrity as the organizer of that list, since I’ve run the fastest stock rs4 time. For that, you can go fuck yourself.
Any qualifying times shared go on the list. You need to post multiple timeslips, and for records preferably video as well as having witnesses. I had all 3.
Enjoy. A friend who was there that day (one of 10 members of the site who were there) made and posted this video.
World Record Stock B7 RS4 quarter mile 12.75 @ 108: http://youtu.be/Y2zYzRiNDnk