On that note (great example) could you give us an idea
a) how much those are going to cost (including all the fuckups, all the wasted material)
b) how much time you will have in them when they’re done and what you make per hour at your job
c) if you had any free help
d) if they work as well as the JHM setup which was modelled and then flowbench tested at Roush and SVT
I bet when you add it all up, your headers will be great because they were a labour of love, but in the end if someone said ‘hey dude, make me some headers’ you’d say ‘Sure. for $5000’.
Way to put me on the spot there Saki but I will play along to a point. First though I want to address something that bothers me. In one of JHM’s shifter comparison videos they talk about how they made a finely machined transmission cross rod that they found didn’t work well. Yet now they offer the transmission cross rod with just a spherical end so that they can keep the Delrin bushings on the other side. I just don’t see the need for the part unless people are breaking those cross rods left and right.
Back to the headers:
a) 1. Just in materials (pre-bent tubing, collectors, and flanges) I am right below two grand including the fuck-ups/wasted material. The material is not cheap and the high quality collectors that I am using are far from cheap since they cost over 15 percent of what the whole JHM headers cost EACH. Also currently I am on revision six of my headers since I just warped the crap out the flanges that I got from Scott@advancedautomotion. If I make it to revision thirteen then I think I will be over what JHM charges for their headers just in materials. Keep in mind though JHM went through a bunch of revisions too and I have seen it said that they had the engine out so many times that it was ridiculous. We have to keep things in perspective here and I am not bashing JHM but just trying to keep the story straight.
a) 2. Now if you add in the cost of equipment for this project then I am over what the supercharger costs! Sadly I am not kidding but those costs are not wasted to this one project since I now have the knowledge and equipment to make a ton of stuff and do repairs/work that I couldn’t before. I mean there is so much stuff that you need to get this project moving along like:
A. icengine works kit - to model what the headers should look like
B. Miller welder and welding table
C. all the safety gear (auto-darkening mask, gloves, jackets, etc)
D. consumables for welding (tungsten electrodes, sharpener for the tungsten/diamond grinding wheels, filler rod, argon tank, MIG welding wire, tri-mix gas for MIG welding stainless)
E. the first saw that I used for cutting tubing
F. industrial band saw that I am using now to cut tubing with its expensive premium bi-metal band saw blades
G. multiple different grinders (handheld and bench) plus the grinding wheels
H. lastly a Miller plasma cutter to cut out my own SS flanges
It racks up fast! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
b) Time wise I only get one or two days a week to work on this project since I am working on it during my days off for the past three months. Not quite sure when I will be done but at this point I have until next March when the local tracks open back up to get it all wrapped up and get some test miles on the car. Most people here like me don’t give a shit about dyno numbers so I want to hit the drag strip to use that as my testing ground. Also I don’t work at a shop any more since I now have a small shop in my backyard and make much more money with my other business than I would ever make from working at a shop.
c) I have received very little free help but the help that I have received has been great. It is mostly just tips here and there on how to do things easier. For example, you can’t really learn how to weld by reading a book or watching somebody else since it is all about practice.
d) We shall have to wait and see if my headers work better than the JHM headers. I will not speak to something that I don’t know the results yet and it would waste everybody’s time plus cause unneeded drama. Now I can tell you that there are certain things that I have my thoughts and opinions about that I think will work better but I want to see how they turn out first. For example, one of the things that I have not found the answer to is what size tubing is the primary pipes on JHM’s headers. When I asked Dru, he told me that he did not have access to that information and the people that I have asked did not bother to check before installing the headers. So I have to speculate that the primary pipes are probably 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" since bigger would hurt NA cars.
e) I have had multiple people ask me about making a set of headers for them and I have told them that I want to finish my set first.
lol. I’m not new to Audi forums in general, so I knew I’d get some laughable responses. : I’m definitely not a JHM hater… I have their shifter and solid linkage, and I’ve been watching their R&D’d RS6-Rs (buddy has them on his car, making REALLY nice numbers). I just think their cross rod is a bit expensive, even for the fact that they’ve put the R&D and their time and parts into it. $50 is a much more reasonable figure, in my opinion, which is just that, an opinion, considering what it costs to make on your own. I was merely pointing it out for the people who have the capability/access to weld, and like doing things on their own. Perhaps, I like sharing knowledge, as I thought that’s what forums for.
why dont you look at it in a way of a business owner. people are going to pay because its just quicker and easier to put in your card info than to run to lowes and buy a bag of bolts and try to weld shit together. also what is your overhead and what is that of a business owner’s with employee salaries, rent, heat, electricity, etc? people need to understand that the guy is trying to make some money, but needs to implement the costs of running said business. wouldnt you do the same or would you work for free?
since you and 8URBUTTH0l3 can fabricate and saved yourself some cash, good for you. make your own now and sell them for cheaper since your so good
if this were such a blockbuster part for JHM and they were making a fortune on it, I can guarantee you that DxC and all his buddies stillborn rabbit and rejectB5 would have copied it and had someone in China make it so they could sell it for $98 and call JHM a ripoff.
I reckon that in order to make this worthwhile for JHM to make these, they charge a price that covers their time and effort. Reality is they probably just wanted to make life easier for customers with this need.
They sell plenty of stuff barely above cost. Have a look above at the guy who just described his process making longtube headers for his B6 S4…it’s costing him pretty much what JHM sells these for retail. If he wants to make a go of it, and make it his business, he’ll maybe get those costs down eventually, but when you factor in his time, costs, materials, equipment depreciation, space/real estate, it’s clearly going to be a pretty modest ‘profit’ if any.
Trust me, I understand this, but like I posted earlier, it shouldn’t be that much of a markup. It’s like Best Buy selling their USB cables for $30 when they get them for $4 at cost (I used to work there). I can appreciate the time and skill it requires to make something like those headers, which are a piece of art. But a $7 part, maybe $2 for the welding wire, maybe 30 mins max from start to finish. So you’re saying it costs them $116 in time? That’s a hefty hourly rate… Again, it’s a fairly “specialty” part, w/out much demand, but holy crap! Find a professional welder and he can do it for less than that…
lets say from start to finish it takes him an hour. lets say an hour and a half to also incorporate the time to run to lowes and buy the parts, set your welder, spool, gas to the story, electricity to run the welder, at 80 per hour labor rate which is CHEAP now a days, then yea thats a pretty good price. look at the big picture, if you can make it cheaper, thats good for you. i applaud your fab skills. some people just dont have that luxury.
Yeah, I see now. I just finished talking to my brother-in-law who welds for the oil rigs in Texas. He said if somebody brought him the rod and joint, he’d probably charge $75-$100 just for the quick cut/weld. I honestly didn’t realize it would be that much. Taking into account the set up and everything, I now understand it. Initially, it just didn’t make sense. Now that I have more info on it, I get it. lol
I personally can’t weld, but my friend can and is going to teach me, plus we have a DIY car center, so I am lucky in this case. My apologies to JHM. However, if somebody is able to weld, use the part I linked to make your own, to save some money. That said, this is a mod that should be done if you do anything more than shifting like a granny. That piece is a ticking bomb.
So, just talked to him again, he thought I meant building that rod from a straight piece of stock, doing the bends and everything himself. He said MAYBE 20-25 bucks, most probably wouldn’t even charge for something that small.
I agree with this statement and especially the bold section.
Saki, get it right because I am not yet at what JHM sells their headers for retail. There is still a big window until then and I have some room to play with. Now I really don’t see the need to add a portion of business to my company with welding up headers. The exhaust market is kind of a shitty place and Miltek is a great example of why. I maybe willing to make a set or two after I finish mine just I am not there yet either. You also have to remember that JHM uses 321 stainless steel which is a lot more expensive than the 304 stainless steel that I am using. Plus they use laser cut flanges that are outsourced and that costs money. So I would imagine that the cost of the headers in materials is just over two grand and the rest is labor so the $2750 that they ask for has very little margin.
Labor is expensive. I think JHM’s labor rate is $100 per hour now and most dealerships are in the $120 to $135 range. Which is pretty common since most aftermarket shops are between twenty to thirty dollars cheaper than the dealerships. Dealerships really terrrible margins too but nobody will believe me.
Remind me of what I got wrong? You outlined the costs of material and did zero accounting for labor and the depreciation of equipment. Sounds like you are at JHM cost alright.
Here’s what I wrote
“its costing him pretty much what JHM charges retail”
I have spoken with the JHM guys and the fab work on exhaust makes for a shitty business. Labor (skilled) intensive, capital intensive, material intensive work requiring a bunch of space, shipping massive boxes etc and it basically needs scale to work. JHM justifiably has all but gotten out of the business, leaving it to fast intentions for example on the B6/7.
I don’t have that much time into this project. I do have time invested but not as much as you might think. Honestly I have more enjoyment lost from just not being able to drive the car while I work on this.
The depreciation of the equipment is not that bad either. Welders, band saws, and plasma cutters don’t drop off the value cliff nearly as bad as cars when you drive a new one off the lot. Some cars are so bad that they lose half their value once you drive them off the lot!
I guess getting stuff used is the way to go too. Lots of stuff you can buy used and sell for what you paid for it a couple of years later. First guy takes a hit though.
Hey Bitch… My s4 will be done sometime next week. I have two projects cars s4 and M3 and my first house which is a HUGE money pit.
I will not stop until i hold the k04 based turbo record. period if i have to spend 7K on a custom geared trans I will i dont really care. I have all my rs4 parts ect finally in some nice bosch racing injectors 1200cc. And Im ready to get down at MIR here in january at one of the track rentals.
Cool story bro, won’t hold my breathe…why would you talk about gearing on a tranny that has went 10.8 with no problems? We have been waiting for you JHM record breaking epic build for months…or years.
I’m definitely not a JHM hater… I have their shifter and solid linkage, and I’ve been watching their R&D’d RS6-Rs (buddy has them on his car, making REALLY nice numbers). I just think their cross rod is a bit expensive, even for the fact that they’ve put the R&D and their time and parts into it. $50 is a much more reasonable figure, in my opinion, which is just that, an opinion, considering what it costs to make on your own. I was merely pointing it out for the people who have the capability/access to weld, and like doing things on their own. Perhaps, I like sharing knowledge, as I thought that’s what forums for. 