logging with Dual Pulley

B8 S4
#1

Hi guys,

I’m trying to sort out all of the AZ threads on logging but currently have a headache after reading through threads. :-\

I just bit the bullet and ordered an over-drive pulley to supplement my AWE-tuning pulley. I also finally ordered a real logging device (ross-tech) so I will be logging this to death, both with 104 octane, and also my usual 93/E85 mixture, and maybe a 104/E85 mixture, and of course hit the track before DA’s get too high.

question #1: should I log before I do a dual-pulley?
question #2: Aside from ignition timing, spec/actual boost, fuel trim, A/F, and IAT’s, what else should I be logging?

I am suspecting that my AWE pulley is slipping with my current set-up, and I am hoping the OD pulley will alleviate that as well. If I floor the car at 75-80mph, its as if the DSG slips before fully engaging (but the transmission still gives a firm downshift, which leads me to believe its not the DSG clutches), and the S/C whine doesn’t seem “up-to-speed” until I feel all of the power, but its always a hit/miss and not consistent.

sorry if this is a repeat post, but after 4 hours total on AZ, my eyes are crossed.

#2

First thing if you haven’t already and you probably have but read Jran’s awesome thread! I linked it below… I’m always willing to help with logging and we can always get on the phone if you need help/support… I’ve heard the newest version is not working correctly in terms of how many fields you can choose and turbo mode, I haven’t tried so Josh can probably elaborate more.

As for your questions yes, I’d get some baseline runs and try to record the conditions as well as try to do it in an area you can use again so the process is repeatable… I’d focus on boost, bypass, timing and IAT’s here… I like the dragstrip as you go through 4 full gears and into 5th so lots of good data, no legal risk and less safety issues…

You’ve hit some of the key fields for testing the 2 pulleys especially log actual and requested boost along with bypass to see if the bypass is bleeding boost and where… I’d get some details on that with one fuel type and then start testing the fuel combinations to see how they impact timing values and knock…

I’m always willing to review the logs and offer some feedback as I’m sure Josh and several others would as well…

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=3715.0

#3

I think Ron covered it. Most of the basic fields I listed in the logging threads will get you what you need. If you want to log A/F, just log one of the lambda actual values instead of one of the current fields I have listed (maybe log knock on one cylinder instead of two).

I’ve updated both the thread on here and AZ with the changes recommended by Ross-Tech to help with the logging issues I was seeing in the new version (15.7.4). I sent Ross-Tech an email a few days ago, and if they come back with anything else, I’ll give another update.

One other thing to note… The thread on AZ is probably a little easier to read because everything is in the first few posts. I can’t update my original thread on here, so some of the information is spread out over several later posts.

#4

Thank you Ron & Josh. I’m hoping the FL summer will reveal some good information. I’ll actually be doing this without cooling upgrades into the summer, and then likely upgrading based on the logs.

#5

Darn! Ron / Josh, may I email you both my logs? The file is too big to attach!

here is the scoop though:

Here is the full logs, I added in the “gear” under the marker field as well just to ease my viewing. The log started around 10mph, went WOT and the car downshifted into 1st gear, and of course either spun through 1st gear.

1st gear observations, lots of boost bleed, surprised that my actual ignition timing went to 27.75 degrees at redline (or is the actual field the requested timing? zero corrections on cylinder 1 aside from when I hit a series of bumps). IAT’s dropped from 40.5C to 39.75C by the end of the run when it upshifted at 7,199rpm.

2nd gear observations, lots of boost bleed (up to 20.99% by 5,050rpm) given that I am sure I was still spinning the wheels (If you ever got WOT in the day through 1st and 2nd gears and look in the rear view mirror, you’ll see tire marks on the ground from the start of where you went WOT in the lower gears). The boost bleed lowers to 4.02% at 6,592rpm, and the ECU/TCU decides to shortshifts at 6,771rpm. Ignition timing tops again at 27.75 degrees and IAT’s goes up to 51.75C.

The upshift into 3rd gear lands me at 4,650rpm (due to the shortshifting from 2nd gear) with boost bleeding starting at 6.28% rising to 11.46% by 5,080rpm. After 5,205rpm the car gains some composure and bleeding drops from 9.1% to 0% by 5,676rpm and starts to bleed ever so slightly up to 5.72% from 6,455rpm - upshift at 7000rpm (confirmed by seat of the pants sensation as the car pulled like a monster starting at 5,205rpm through the upshift at 7,000rpm would allow for some bleeding for safety reasons). Ignition timing targets are lower in this gear at 24.75degrees @ 7,000rpm. Intake temps rose to 66.75C

The upshift into 4th gear caught me by surprise, as the car felt very strong on my butt dyno in this gear (like it had full power, and the logs confirmed it). Zero boost bleed in this gear where I shut it down at 5,635rpm due to road limitations. IAT’s rose to 71.25C, and ignition timing rose to 19.125 degrees at 5,676rpm, about 2 degrees lower at a similar RPM in 3rd gear, which would tell me that the ECU selected a lower table due to IAT’s rising. I would have loved to see 4th gear through redline on this log to confirm my previous butt dyno feelings where it was very strong through redline on track day.

I’ll do some 3rd gear 3000rpm into 4th gear redline logs soon to minimize the effects of wheelspin in 1st and 2nd gears. However, I will tell you that despite the timing on this log confirming its relatively healthy, I’m wondering if I’m overshooting GIAC’s requested boost targets in the mid-range which is causing the boost bleed up to 5,000rpm or if I’m starving for fuel due to the E85/93 mix causing the boost bleed? If its fueling issues, wouldn’t I have ignition timing issues and corrections as well?

^^Should I log just lambda values to see? Or should I also log fuel-trims? Let me know, I will get it to you guys.

#6

I’d be glad to take a look at them… mustanggtron@yahoo.com

#7

emailed, feel free to forward to Josh as well.

#8

Think I figured out my boost bleed, below 5,000rpm and after 6,500rpm. I’m hitting specified boost below and after, but between 5,000-6,500rpm GIAC requests boost about 1000hPA more than what a dual pulley can deliver, hence by bleed is at or near 0% between that range.

Given my particular car and its environment, it needs to request slightly over 2300hPA in the mid-range and above 6,500rpm in order to not bleed, but then again I wonder if GIAC did that to allow for safe timing? it seems like my car enjoys the E85/93 mix so far…

#9

I’ll send you a PM with my email address.

What was the ambient temp and pressure?

#10

emailed log.

Temp = 77F
pressure = 30.03

#11

Unless there are other factors that affect requested hPA?

#12

Loe,

I just took a quick look at the logs. Overall, it looks pretty good.

The timing is awesome at almost 28 degrees, and no knock correction (or very little anyway). The “actual” timing is just that, and essentially the requested timing also. Actual is probably more like the mean. Because, with that said, every cylinder will have slightly different timing when it fires based on any correction or other changes; you can log IGA_IGC_x to see exactly what it is on each cylinder.

IAT’s are definitely creeping up there given the ambient temp, and no doubt a cooling system would help. They shoot up pretty quick just from 1st to 4th gear. I do a lot of my testing in similar conditions, and if I start at 40C, I maybe top out at 55-58C whereas you get up over 70C. At the same time, it’s not hurting you at least in term knock correction on that one cylinder, but as you speculated in the email/above post, it very possibly might be causing the timing to drop overall (going to a different table due to IAT’s).

A couple thoughts on bypass, and to address some of the questions you had in the email/above post… There are a lot of factors that can effect the specified pressure, and bypass from what I’ve seen. One reason you may be seeing so much bypass in lower gears/lower RPM’s is you are exceeding torque limits. If you are running out of fuel, it will definitely manifest itself in the form of bypass. In the logs where I’ve seen that happen, I haven’t seen timing corrections; it almost always comes in the form of more bypass.

From what I calculated, you are hitting around 19 psi in boost. You topped out at 2328 hPa in actual manifold pressure. Using 1014 hPa as your ambient pressure (30.03 Hg converted to hPa).

To check for fuel issue, I’d log both specified and actual lambda (to see if you stay on target), and short/long-term fuel trims (to see if you are getting above 20-25%). It might be interesting to see your fuel pressure too…

#13

19psi is pretty dang cool, I did not expect that (only hoped for 2psi over the standard GIAC stage 2 16-16.5psi), and I am still very surprised that the E85/93 mixture seems unfazed in terms of ignition timing with the extra boost, but also doesn’t surprise me given I trapped 119.69mph on this mixture a month back.

Thank you for your answers on the BPV bleeding. Since I am pretty much near targets (overshooting and undershooting in certain area’s), would it be safe to assume that exceeding TQ limitations as the reason for bleeding and not fuel starvation? I’ll log the specified fueling above sometime this week. My main concern for exceeding TQ limits is that it may eventually trigger a CEL (which I believe has been documented by another member in vendorzine’s dual-pulley thread, where he said “it ran like crap, triggered a CEL”).

Are there any factors that would change requested hPa? or this is a static value for a given engine load/RPM? I shot an email to GIAC as well and crossing my fingers that I can get a custom file to resolve any issues with the boost bleeding.

Car is running very strong, the bump in power I receive at around 5,000rpm is almost like an afterburner affect ;D

#14

The boost is in the 18-18.5 psi range most of the time, but it did spike up to 19 psi at that one point.

I’m a little surprised you have so little knock correction on the race gas map with what is pretty high timing (about as high as you’ll see). Nothing to complain about though as long as GIAC leaves the basic factory safeguards in place (by all accounts they do for the most part). It’s pretty amazing what good gas and E85 can do…

I only have experience with one other car running a similar setup (dual pulley and a 50/50 mix of 93/E85). We logged his car on an APR race gas map, and it was OK in terms of fuel trims and lambda (fuel trims were pretty high, but within the acceptable range). He was OK right up to the 50/50 mix, and even past it, the limitations were related to software limits and not hardware per se.

Specified pressure is impacted by the things we pointed out, so I wouldn’t consider it a static value. It seems like it is mostly load/RPM based, but you have to factor in that things like ambient conditions can change that greatly. If you look at most tunes (stock included), you’ll see a huge delta in specified pressure based on conditions (and in turn, load). You can also log load to see if you are hitting 100%; that will be a pretty good indication that you are maxing it out too.

#15

^^ awesome! Now that I look deeper into the log itself and take a more 3 dimensional approach and what I remembered visually + other senses, it makes perfect sense. I will admit I was freaked out seeing bleeds of up to 20% in some area’s, but I do have an understanding why it did it on that specific RPM range and it did quickly recover.

With that being said, I am going to dial down my ethanol content and monitor ignition correction, would be interesting to see where the minimal threshold would be and if it may help request additional mid-range hPa.

#16

Yeah, it’s nice to have the logs to really see how different fuel combinations are working. I probably spend more time looking at that than anything at this point. In your case, seeing how temps effect performance will be good to see too.

#17

okay so on E30…

I’ll log officially tonight, but to say the least, it “feels” no different than my “E37.7” I have to make a long trip this evening so i’ll be able to drain the tank to/from, just in time for Weds to fill up MS109 or 260GT Plus 104 octane, log that, and hit the track.

There is still that bump in power at 5,000rpm.

I’ll log these 10 values:

Specified hPa
actual hPa
BPV
ignition actual (if I get lowered timing tables, I will look into logging each cylinder)
engine RPM
engine load (<—I hope this is a field)
Lambda specified 1
Lambda specified 2
Lambda actual 1
Lambda actual 2

Josh/Ron, according to other GIAC stage II logs you’ve seen, what do they request in the mid-range where I am getting mainly 8-11% boost bleeds between the 4,000-5000rpm range? As you know, I’m currently requesting approx. 1860-1900hPa in that range and quickly shoots to approx. 2200-2300hPa directly after, is this normal to you?

I wish I had logs from pre-dual, but I may have been getting the same thing (only of a smaller magnitude) pre-dual pulley, which would explain in my prior posts about a sensation of belt-slippage when downshifting to 3rd gear at WOT at 70mph; the BPV opening up and closing would cause that “slippage” sensation as well, but it wasn’t consistent when it did it.

#18

Loe, Sorry busy day in the office yesterday and then I had a basketball game last night… Anyway, I pretty much echo what Josh says… I can’t believe the times you are running with the amount of bypass but it seems the timing is making up for the lost boost at least given the ET’s and mph’s you’ve put up… I would caution forming too many opinions/facts off one set of logs though, not saying they aren’t meaningful but it’s just one sample… So is GIAC working on a dual pulley tune?

As for your more recent question on GIAC logs I haven’t seen many dual pulley GIAC cars so it’s hard to say, Jeff(Jones2012S4) would be the best to ask on that… For the most part APR has been able to keep my bypass closed with the exception upon when the shift occurs since they aren’t dropping timing with AMAX mode I think they specifically dump some boost… I get a percent here or there but nothing like you’re seeing even in the lower gears. If I get some time at lunch I’ll compare some of my logs, and the other dual pulley logs I have from other cars… Good stuff and love seeing you get so into this! Keep it up…

#19

Ron, that is fine and awesome man! I agree, I should not make too many assumptions on this one log. I used to share logs on my previous N54 platform all the time; the more the merrier and I wish more would join in as well. I did reach out to Jeff on AZ, hopefully he will chime in.

Can’t wait to do fuel-system logging tonight, both on the lambda side for A/F, and on the fueling side!

#20

to answer your other questions, on AZ a member did mention about a B8 running a BETA GIAC file for a dual-pulley tune (I am assuming with a GMC pulley though). I did reach out to alex@giac, and he said there is nothing yet for the B8.5, but something may be in the works. He reviewed me logs as well and said he was surprised at the little to no ignition correction, but that he is looking into the mid-range 4000-5000rpm boost bleed and why its requesting such a low value. He seems to think its a fueling issue at this point (I’m inclined to agree), but he will get back to me once he researches it more.

At this time, I wish we had something like a COBB ATR, where the user can adjust fuel tables on their own (I used to tinker with E85 all the time on my N54 with these tables to prevent maxing out fueling).