Lots of mass shootings in the US lately...but I have a question:

General Discussion
#1

Why, in all of these situations, with all of these random gunmen shooting places up killing multiple people and wounding many more (Empire State Building, Batman, Sikh temple, Seattle cafe, Texas A&M etc…and that’s just the past few months) is the gunman never taken out by a citizen who also happens to be carrying a gun?

Add to those the dozens and dozens of other mass shootings in America…it begs the question: If ‘the right to bear arms’ makes everything so safe (gun lobbyists make this claim all the time), why are all the sane, licensed gun toting Americans NEVER there when we need them? Why do 5 to 30 people get murdered by the crazed gunman…who then usually takes his own life, or his killed by the police?

I just find it weird that you never hear about someone like the Arizona killer stepping up to kill people…and after his first couple of shots they are NEVER taken out by one of the millions of other guns that are out there, legally, in the hands of the sane people.

Anyone have any thoughts?

#3

lol that’s awesome. The American jokes we always make up here are about guns and getting sued.

#4

I’m moving to Canada. hasn’t really been anything bad in Chicago for a while. Well, if you don’t count the daily murders in the south side

#5

we’ve got our mass shootings too…we just don’t have the right to bear arms the way americans do, so my thread question doesn’t apply here.

I’m always wondering why someone doesn’t pull their gun out from under their car seat and wipe these psychos out.

#7

the fat jokes are a close third

#8

I think that carrying a handgun is a huge responsibility. Most people carry for the protection of their families or themselves, not to stop crime or horrific events such as the mass shootings. America isn’t the “wild west” where every cowboy has a gun and can take the law into their own hands.(Perfect example of this is George Zimmerman, he went a step too far and tried to be a vigilante) It would also be very hard for a person who is merely a civilian who has the appropriate permits to carry in public places to be able to successfully disarm or shoot a gunmen without causing more hysteria or actually killing an innocent person trying to flee. Regardless of how well you shoot on a range adrenalin and the environment can take a toll on your accuracy. I was a Marine for 10 years, been in some pretty shitty situations and reacted due to training that I received, but even that reaction is not guaranteed. I’ve seen people in leadership roles freeze up and cower behind the nearest cover.

I personally think we may be lucky that people don’t pull out their guns and try to save the day, but I also am surprised that this hasn’t happened like Sakimano mentioned.

Also, like others have mentioned, the burden of our law system is unbelievable! You may not do any jail time if you shoot and kill someone who is committing a mass shooting, but I can almost guarantee if a family wanted to sue you in civil court for wrongful death or some other bullshit there is a great chance they could win.

#10

great post Euro.

Your point about range shooting vs. real life shooting is particularly fitting today.

From the looks of it, the gunman in new york wasn’t a mass shooter. He shot his former boss in the head at close range as his boss was arriving for work, then put the gun in a bag (a 45), and walked away in the crowds, trying to blend in. Someone saw him commit the crime, told two cops, who confronted him.

When he was confronted, he apparently reached for his weapon in his bag, but the cops shot him dead before he could get any shots off.

Now we find out that 9 other people were hit by what was described as ‘crossfire’ but from the sounds of it, they were hit by the two cops. They must have just unloaded on him…and the crowd because they kept missing.

Pretty crazy. I bet those guys would put 10 shots out of 10 in the outline at the range from 100 feet. But in this situation from 30 feet they sprayed the place.

#12

Thanks for your appreciation and support beem

You would think these guys could shoot they are cops for fuck sakes!!, but I had Marines who couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn from 20 ft away with a 4X scope…lol and we are considered to be basic rifleman first, then whatever our military occupation is. They don’t kick you out if you can’t shoot, which I have my thoughts about but that is another discussion. I’m sure that some cops suck at shooting, but they don’t let them go or fire them, they just push them through and the only thing it really effects is their performance evaluations which means they will probably never get promoted, but they can still tote around a 40 and fire at will in the name of the law.

#13

I’m eagerly awaiting a federal conceal carry handgun license legislation (which will probably never happen).
In New Jersey I was laughed out of the police station when I went to apply for a permit.
It really depends on the area in which you live as to who can carry weapons and how helpful the law is if you happen to use them for good.
Criminals can always carry weapons, as they don’t care about the law.

#14

Saki, Euro and Beem all brought up valid points.

Beem - the chaos scenario you described has happened many times and unfortunately will continue to. There are so many plain clothes or off duty LEO’s that have been killed due to miss-id or “chaos.” It’s tough to hear about those cases.

Saki - NO civilian can carry a pistol or any firearm in NYC period. Let’s say I live in Suffolk County, LI and I have a carry/conceal permit (not just the regular “sportsman” license/permit which allows pistol ownership for sport/range/home defense etc. Limits the owner to carry only to and from a range or hunting etc but cannot be concealed or loaded during carry.) and I want to travel to NJ to a gun show to sell my pistol. The NYPD and everyother LEA does not want you stepping foot in Manhattan - end of story. You litterally are supposed to travel around Manahattan. They take firearms statutes for civilians that seriously in Manhattan. It’s a borough within a state where I’m legally licensed but unless I have a “badge” that says I belong to an approved agency I cannot bring a firearm into Manhattan for any reason.

Euro - thanks for your service and you couldn’t be more accurate about live vs. training shooting scenarios. Look at any indoor home defense/robbery crime scenes and the first thing you’ll see a detective do is look at the cieling.

#15

I watched this video recently about some guys walking around town with an unconcealed weapon; they are then stopped by the police: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=177_1345787871&comments=1 I thought it was a very interesting interaction.

As someone who grew up in the UK, it would be very easy for me to say “guns are stoopid” but I don’t really and truly understand the principles and arguments for and against guns on the street and that you can buy a firearm at Target. However, as a teenager, I used to spend Weds afternoons shooting targets with an SA80. God bless the Air cadets.

On a lighter note:

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1011/the-right-to-bear-arms-demotivational-poster-1288917337.jpg

#16

Here is the video to add to our discussion. It shows the blatant disregard to civilians by these cops and how they escalated the situation and made it very dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWgrHwrlf8&feature=player_embedded

#17

Most cops can’t hit the broad side of a barn. I have done a few events for the local police departments using laser tag equipment and they couldn’t hit me to save their lives. Of course most people will say that doesn’t matter because they are laser tag guns but really, the beam spreads out to the size of a baseball at a hundred feet!

#18

not sure it’s blatant disregard…just really shitty aim. They had to take him out in that situation. He had just murdered one civilian (according to the witness who stopped the police to point him out) and then he pulled out his gun and pointed it at them. They just sucked at shooting.

He also got hit a bunch of times before going down, and they’re trained to fill him until he’s neutralized…since he could easily fire at any moment.

Suicide by cop is a popular way these guys end it all. He didn’t even fire a shot here…just wanted them to end him.

#19

Wow, that’s quite the video. Not very often that something like that is caught on camera with such a clear view.

I read an article a few days ago that said the cops fired 16 shots in total, 7 by one officer and 9 by the other. Out of the 9 bystanders hit by bullets, all were from the cops guns. 3 of 9 were direct hits and 6 of the 9 were hit by bullet fragments. None of the bystanders were critically injured.

After seeing the video, I can’t say that the cops should have handled that any differently. They took him out right away, before he could harm any other people. He clearly wanted to commit suicide by cop. I bet the majority, if not all of the bullets/fragments that hit the bystanders had already passed through the shooters body.

#20

Not sure what you specifically mean by civilian, but to me civilian means not LEO/GOVT/Military. If this is your definition, then what you are saying is slightly misleading.

edit: deleted

As far as the OP goes, I agree with euroswagr. Most law abiding citizens who carry, do so for protection of themselves, their loved ones, and their property, not out of some misguided sense of vigilantism. Some states allow you to defend others and their property, but it is another very difficult knife edge to navigate.

#21

How???

#22

edit: deleted
I have been enlightened by NY07RS4. My ramblings are no longer needed.

#23

Sure You can have a residence in NYC and get a license if you’re going down that path. THat doesn’t get them around the ordinance I mentioend above. No ‘circumstances’ come into play, the current penal law is black and white, you can’t argue it - aside from being vague that’s incorrect. I’ll bet you a dollar you can’t name one “profession” that doesn’t fall into my description above. Private security can be an acredited “agency.” We can play the semantics game all day. These instances where you same at the end of the day it’s at the police commissioners discretio…let me explain why that won’t ever happen. Risk.

Since this chatter is probably boring as hell for the rest, I’ll waive the white flag now. Feel free to PM me and I’ll explain how and why I know the info i posted is accurate.

#24

SLVRRS4 brought up a valid point that I admit I got wrong. The current NYS law regarding transport allows a pistol license holder (either type, sportsman or cc) to transport a firearm through NYC under the following circumstances:

Gun is locked in the trunk and unloaded.
You man NOT make ANY stops in NYC. You must enter and exit the city without any stops.

My apologies for that. I got stuck on the “some civilians can carry in NYC” and didn’t realize what he meant by that. Either way, I stand corrected on the transport aspect, he was correct.