ok so ill throw rocks.

B6 A4
#1

After reading AZ and the pethetic thread filled with 1.8T guys with small egos but large complexes. I thought to look a little and see whats what.

first off I have no issues with the 1.8T motors. I think there great. Are they that great… well lets look and see when we stack it up aginsed the 3.0

1.8 T hp 3.0 hp
170@5900 220@6300

So plus 50 hp for the 3.0 Stock.

ok so lets look at TQ

1.8T tq 3.0 tq
160@20-5000 221@3200

So this one is kinda a toss up but in the end the 3.0 still has 60 more TQ then the 1.8T

The performance figgures are for $hit for the 1.8T

The 1.8T 1/4 mile the 3.0 1/4 mile
16.2 15.2

So thats a second faster for the 3.0 Stock. the 3.0 has a better gear raito and it has a better power raito. Can some one tell me what Im missing here?

Im going to do some searching and see how the cars stack up after the 1.8T gets chipped. So far I dont’ see what all the hoopla is about.

#2

Those numbers are always funny too bring up, especially to people driving stock 1.8’s who are doing the bashing :stuck_out_tongue:

That being said I think we stack up around a stage 1+ or stage 2 1.8T… It’s a bit hard to say, as you can’t really compare a 3rd party company’s dyno results (which are corrected for BHP) to manufacturer specs. Also most people with stage 1 or 1+ don’t take their cars to the track, so it’s hard to find actual real world performance times. I bought my car for $2000 less than any comparable 1.8T at the time, so I’m not too worried about how much or how little money it takes for them to catch up with us.

#3

IT looks like you have to go to a stage 2 injector upgrade to be where The 3.0 is at.

Revo has the Tq wrong for a stock car but the revo stage 2 injectors file is said to give you

205/240

The APR injector file said

229/270

But when you upgrade to a ko4 the power out put is only.

247/286

So in conclusion. The 3.0 only needs to make 30CHP to be at 250hp. As for the Tq… getting 60tq isn’t going to be quite that easy. I think adding an exhaust should give you close to 10 then the tune shuold be good for say another 15+ so really Im not seeing the value here in what makes the 1.8t such a monster.

All Ive seen is a buntch of guys make a ultra laggy super unrelyable car that makes great dyno queen numbers. I think the facts are that most people went for the 1.8T knowing its a easy mod car. I don’t see why simple mods that helped the 4.2 wouldn’t do the same for the 3.0. I seriously think there is much more hp to be found in the 3.0 then most of the 1.8T guys would like to think.

and now looking at the figgures. I have to say this elete 1.8T thing is starting too look not so great… time will tell but from what you guys have stock to what is very possible. I think alot of heads are going to turn. I remember seeing them turn with the 4.2. Thats why I have one now

#4

I really dont give a damn who is faster than who, it’d just be nice to see the 3.0 get a little more power

To me it doesn’t matter if the 1.8t guys can make more power, I just sick of hearing that the 3.0 can’t make power just because it’s an N/A motor

#5

I agree with BC sniper, not looking to try and break any records… However what I find most amusing about the 1.8T “monsters” that are clearing over 400whp on the dynos, is that:

A) the build threads consist of them getting the car running for a day, breaking it, and fixing it for a month, rinse and repeat

B) When they finally do take them down the track they are no faster than the OTS stage3 turbo kits.

C) For half the money they could have built a reliable S4 and put a down-payment on a house

#6

^^^^^^ totally agree with that…not a day goes by when a BT guy says that he needs to take his cylinder head off…

I am not looking to break records, but just enough to know that I can jump certain cars at the lights and have it be fun if taken to the odd hill climb or track day…

#7

It is good to see the comparison between the two cars from a technical stand point. Hp Vs Hp. When you look at the facts the 1.8T guys don’t stack up so well.

I have to agree. I don’t think most guys are looking for internet fame. If you ask me most guys just want to enjoy there cars even more then they do already and adding power is one of those ways.

I have to say Over the years it has gotten old hearing the turbo guys go on and on about how thats the only way to make power. Its clearly not and if you ask me. The n/a motor builds have lots to offer and I don’t see the 3.0L being any different.

While I don’t think most guys are looking to break records, I do think WERE ALL looking to break the misconception, that the 3.0L is a dead horse.

#8

Let’s look at it this way. Here on AR you can speak openly. So if you do decide to out turbos or lead blowers on the car no one is going to make fun of you or The idea.

If you ask me the only positive thing that can cone out of the audizine thread is to bring members here so they can talk openly and without ridicule.

I truly believe you guys will get great results. You guys are assembling a mass of excited members that want to share and seem to have great ideas. That along with jhm its a good looking future for the 3.0

#9

3.0
220 hp @ 6,300 rpm and
221 lb-ft of torque @ 3,200 rpm.
(14% jump in horsepower over the 2.8 it replaces, that weighs about 20 kg less.)

1.8T
170 hp @ 5,900 rpm
166 lb-ft of torque @ 1,950 to 5,000 rpm.

3800-3900lbs

The important factor is drivability.
Instant, smooth, linear power. Torque is what I look at, and it’s peaking right where you want it to for a car on the street. Very usable.

I have been using SPORT mode and the car feels great, really “on top” of the power and makes me want to beef up the suspension now! :slight_smile:

1.8T is a great motor. I had a B5 for a long time. great mix of economy, sportyness.
I am not sure it’s ideal in a car this heavy and I’m not looking for a ON/OFF power curve that I have to keep modding to obtain.

#10

It’s nice to see it clearly laid out like you guys have. And I think you’re dead on the money about it needing to be around a stg1+ to stg2 1.8T to match the 3.0 stock. The 1.8T guys are always going to argue that they have more power easily available, but truth is “more” and “easily” are pretty relative terms for how much money. Getting to Stg2 is fairly cheap, but as noted, that really is just marginally faster then the 3.0 is stock. If we can get knock out some cheap efficient parts for the 3.0 like a tune, exhuast, and maybe lw part or two, then damn, that stg 2 is going to look pretty silly I’d be willing to bet. And total investment would probably still be less as some have referenced that the 3.0 is cheaper b/c it’s the less desired motor for “performance”.

This whole comparison REALLY reminds me of the B5 S4 guys arguing with the B6/7 S4. For years they told us how stupid we were and how the 4.2 would never make power like the B5’s can. Well fact of the matter is that 90% of the B5’s are stg2 or less (just like the 1.8T’s) and a B6/7 with tune & exhaust will match and often beat up on a stg2 B5. Few of them will admit it, but just find one to go run (tougher then it sounds b/c the B5 needs to be working hehe) and I think the outcome will shock both parties. And when you step back and look at it that way, the B5 S4, as well as the 1.8T, really starts to loose some of it’s appeal.

I do think with the right mods, the 3.0 can really open up some. I don’t think anyone is expecting crazy gains, but as mentioned, a fairly modified 1.8T really isn’t much faster then the 3.0, especially when you consider how little attention to performance the 3.0 has been given. (and again, it’s not about bragging rights for who beats who, just using the comparison for performance levels that are already pretty well know etc)

#11

Great perspective on all sides. I like the contrast from 1/4 mile to hp. While having a turbo can be a real big aid to performance, A bigger aid is determination and hard work. It looks like All of us here are ready for the hard work part. I truly believe we have a good platform to work with.

#12

To help put things into perspective, when I had my tip 3.0mwith just a catback and exhaust, I race from a dig, a 1.8 MT5 with APR Stage 1+ and an AWE cat-back. We were neck and neck until around 110 or so when I slowly started to pull away. Stage 2 will for sure be faster because the KO4 will hold the boost until redline.

#13

That’s an interesting comparison. He had the transmission edge with the 5speed as opposed to tip, my guess is you would have won more definitively if you both had the same transmission. Not hating on tip because I have one, but it’s definitely pretty sluggish stock… hoping the TCU upgrade will fix that ;D

#14

^It’s a little bit more then that too though, the B6 S4’s with tip will set a slightly lower ET but often set a slightly higher trap b/c of the gearing being different. Sounds like him pulling away may be in part due to the auto rather then stick, but from down low, it’s agreed that with a good launch the MT is the stronger setup.

So stg 2 is a turbo swap? It’s tough to keep up with what stg means what. On the B5’s Stg 2-2+ is stock turbo’s but most everything else (from my understanding) and I was thinking the 1.8T might follow these same guidelines. Glad to know that Stg 2 is upgraded to the k04 though, helps put it in perspective.

#15

fair enough, that would make sense. To my knowledge stage 2 is just a testpipe and new tune, you dont go to the K04 until stage 2+ or 3? I’m not sure, I dont think every company rates their “stages” the same

#16

^ well I just looked on apr’s website (figure they’re a pretty good source for the different stages), and they show Stg II+ is still stock turbo, but I think you could upgrade the turbo and still be running
Stg II+ if you didn’t necessarily do the rest of the StgIII stuff.

They also show that stg1+ needs APR’s injectors, and then Stg II needs HFC’s or testpipe in addition. So that said, I don’t think the Stg II is going to be much different of a race (I’d say it’d still be within a car or two). The stages are all so junk though b/c APR says you can run StgII+ on just those components, but “recommends” IC,CB,Hoses,Diverter,Intake,ThottleBody. So a StgI/I+ with all the “recommend” parts is probably going to be faster then a StgII+ with the “required” parts.

And of course, different tuners classify their kits differently as well for the purpose of stages and sounded cooler when you explain it to people that have no idea what they’re talking about anyways.

#17

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/742290107.jpg

162.6hp

#18

ok so thats not all bad. Not killer hp stock but the Tq looks like it can be raised quite a bit and that would make for a strong gain.

So far looking over the tune. THERE is lots of things that are going to require adjusting to help the 3.0 getting serious power.

#19

Awesome! Too bad we can’t just swap over the 4.2 settings, but it’s great to know you can actually see ways to improve it

#20

Lol to add to the 1.8T comparison. We are slower stock than a 1.8T with a maxed out K04 (6spd w/ exhaust, fmic. meth, eurodyne). Didn’t bother with it for more than a few seconds as it was pulling pretty solidly on me. That’s where I’d like to get my car though, around the 200whp mark.