Looking for whether anybody has successfully removed the camshaft guide frame without pulling the engine. For anybody that has seen a few of my other posts, I just replaced the gasket between the IM and Y-pipe and it has resolved the vacuum leak I was experiencing. Car runs really smooth now. However, after having replaced the oil filter housing gaskets, PCV, and coolant temp senor the previous weekend, I now find another oil leak. Got oil in the spark plug tubes for the center three cylinders on the passenger side and am getting some oil leaking down on to the exhaust. I had just replaced the valve cover gaskets within the last 6 months, and just checked those again, so am pretty certain that’s not the source. I’m left to conclude that it’s the guide frame seal. Hence my question as to whether it can be removed. The repair manual says engine out, but that is for the camshaft removal which is obvious given the location of the timing chains. So, can the camshaft remain in place with the timing chains installed while the guide frame is removed? I also didn’t look hard enough to determine if the guide frame can be removed without hanging up on something. Hoping someone has actually done it. Oh, and as stated above, it’s only the passenger side right now, if that actually makes a difference to plausibility.
I checked with mixofia, who had these seals replaced, but that was with engine out.
In the mean time, I’ll probably just apply some gasket sealant in the tubes and around the bottom of the frame seal to the head and hope that covers the leak path.
I doubt it.
I only know of a few people that have done timing chain work on a timing chain V8 BHF B6/7 S4 or C6 A6 3.2 FSI V6 with the engine in the car. There were a lot more of those rear timing chain cars than the V10 S6/S8. Look if you can get the rear coolant pipe and secondary air injection combination valves + lines off with the engine in the car. Then look if you can get the side hard metal coolant lines off. If you can then you can probably do it with the engine in the car.
The camshaft timing chains do have to come off the back of the camshafts/camshaft adjusters or else the tension from the chain will likely break the camshafts when the ladder frame is lifted up. Not fully removed from the engine but just taken off. Hopefully you can find a pin to stick in the tensioners so that they don’t shoot apart.
Needless to say this would not be a quick project and not for the faint of heart and/or lacking in patience. Stubby sockets (normal sockets, Torx, Triple Square, and Allens) would highly be recommended!
Sounds like what was going on with my car as far as the leaks but that required a complete engine out service…
To back up jimmy and keep in mind jimmy is a Audi tech and one of the best. I have actually done guide work on the 4.2 with the motor in the car for a few people and its not worth it.
as for the changing of the oil seals on the V10 with lifting the guides and the cam bridge as jimmy said its technically possibe but if you havent done the job before with the motor out there will be too many road blocks and issues that will pop up that you are going to want the room to work with that you wont have with the motor in the car.
A thought. See about cleaning out the oil and then monitor the oil leaking into the spark plug hole every 1000 miles. If you make sure your PCV system and oil seperator is in good working condition there is a chance that the extra PCV pull will help keep down the crank case pressre that pushes out the oil
This is the exact situation I’m facing at the very moment. I also had oil leaking into the spark plug pockets, and had to remove the camshaft guide frame to get to the lower spark plug seals. I decided I would attempt to do this without removing the motor, however now I’m not able to get the guide frame properly situated back over the cams without hitting the timing chain cover and or the Cam lobes in the process. Initially I used some very heavy duty zip ties to actually keep the cams seated in the head before I removed the guide frame to prevent them from popping up and or jumping off timing alignment. The nylon ties actually did seem to do their job, yet I still can’t get the guide frame correctly reinstalled and now I’m actually having to pull the motor as I should’ve done in the first place
Thanks all. I was hoping for a moon shot, but definitely appreciate the grounding. Especially given isleauto’s situation, as this was exactly how I thought it might be accomplished (by holding the camshaft in place). This was my biggest fear, that I would successfully get it apart, but wouldn’t be able to get it back together due to alignment problems and would then be forced to pull the engine.
I’m currently doing this. Just cleaned the spark plug tubes this last weekend and plan to check this weekend. However, I know that it’s still leaking as I can smell, and sometimes see smoke from the burnt oil dropping on to the exhaust. As a reference, it seems to be worse after the PCV was changed two weeks ago. Does this make sense? I too thought that the normal correct operation of the PCV system would have reduced any inherent leaks in the valve area. The only other silver bullet that I plan to check this weekend is the breather hose between the valve covers. Wondering if it could have some splits that can’t be seen due to the mesh cover. This is my last hail mary before breaking out the RTV and going to town on all the guide frame interfaces to the head.
Back to engine out. I’ve got a post O2 sensor CEL right now that appears to be leading me toward a CAT gone bad. The O2 sensor is not flat lined and actually tracks the readings from the other sensors, just at a drastically different base value. I’ll have to address that one before the end of the year when my registration will require an inspection. Hopefully a few other engine out issues (not needed to immediately address) will pop up and I can resolve all at once. Any thoughts on any and all maintenance that might be performed with the engine pulled?
BTW, is it bad of me to be thinking about getting a second car just so that I can pull the motor myself? I think this would push the wife over the edge of seeing this as just an obsession and starting to consider that I’ve lost my mind. I already get a lot of dirty/exasperated looks when boxes start arriving and the cars on jack stands with the hood open.
Thanks.
I agree with your thought Justin.
It doesn’t sound like you are using the special tool cam bars to hold the camshafts tight to the ladder frame. They look like this:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll37/Jimmybones777/T0047E_zpsjy0iibwx.jpg
They screw into the camshafts by the back near where the camshaft adjusters are.
I actually fabricated a piece of steel plate that snugly fits between the slots in the end of the cams and using the four threaded holes for the valve cover, was able to bring the cams back down and prevent them from turning, yet without removing the cover for the cam sprockets the guide just won’t go back on. After having successfully completed clutch R&R on my Porsche 996tt I felt confident that this would be a breeze, but this darn S6 is testing my patience and possibly my abilities…
Ok that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Good luck.
Not the encouragement I was hoping for but you very well may be correct. Let you guys know how this ordeal ends, hopefully in a week or so.
Exactly. Your going to spend more of your time to try and make things work than you would if you just pulled the motor out. All of the little things your doing are just taking up a bigger part of your time. Its also a good idea to just pull the motor and get a good perspective on whats going on. You will be able to see more and do more with the motor out.
I am not trying to be rude but I just have never had luck doing internal engine repairs like that myself so if you can make it work then more power to you! I usually follow the repair instructions mostly to the letter except for a few small helpful steps that I figure out from experience. Like with tightening the camshaft bolts on the BHF because I don’t want to waste expensive one time use stretch bolts if the cams are not perfect timing wise.
The way that I interpreted your posts was that you had fabricated a steel plate to mostly hold the cams tight but they still were moving a little, unbolted the ladder frame to replace the seals, left the timing chain on the camshaft adjusters/sprockets, and left the rear upper timing covers on. That would probably put a lot of tension on the camshafts causing you to have to force the camshafts down to get the ladder frame bolted back down. In my experience it is really bad to have to force the camshafts because they will break either the cams themselves and/or the bearing caps/ladder frame.
Plus in my opinion now would be a great time to replace the o-rings for the rear upper timing covers because I have been seeing a bunch of FSI V8s with oil in the coolant and the FSI V10s are basically the FSI V8s with two more cylinders added.
Each brand has their own unique ways of doing things and Audis are weird about this engine timing system in my opinion. If you want another example then go and search for some of Saki’s old posts and you will see him talk about Mick and his RS4 being worked on at a Porsche shop then having clutch issues. Sometimes I have found that I just need to stop and go look up how the other guys are doing something to get a better perspective.
justin, jimmy, and especially isle. after all this good back and forth, i’m convinced that i’ll need an engine pull. i snooped around the hard coolant pipe and the upper timing chain cover. it seems possible to get them off, but there’s the unknown of pinning the tensioner, slipping the chain, and then reversing the whole process, particularly when having to create a gasket for the chain cover and get it back on. Same problem I could foresee with the guide frame and the outer gasket. If it isn’t easy to get back on, then the gasket sealant might be compromised during install resulting in the very problem I have right now.
I’m still trying to pinpoint my oil leak, but I did pull the coil packs and found oil in the spark plug tubes again. BTW, does it make sense that the engine would start missing badly after only pulling the coil packs and air filter boxes and resetting faults? It took about four starts and moderate drives for the engine to stop missing. Same thing happened after replacing the IM to Y-pipe gasket. I’m somewhat perplexed. Seems like a vacuum leak that resolves itself after several start cycles.
Sounds like fuel pump may be going or having a hiccup. Same thing happened randomly to my car last week. Running fine since but ordered extra fuel pumps just in case.
again as someone that has done timing chain work with the motor in the car. Anything along that line is going to be best done by pulling the motor. Even the camshaft bridge and anything along that line. A good friend gave me a quote that sums up trying to do lots of work without pulling the motor.
Its like trying to drive a car and never using your hands for anything. Sure you can do it but its just going to be a disaster and 10x harder. And thats true here.
As for the missfires. Its possible that clearing the codes causes a lean condtion due to possible vac leaks and that causes missfires from lean missfires. After the car adapts after a few key cycles the car runs good again. So that is possible
That’s a nice anecdote. This has become more of a thought exercise for me, rather than actually moving toward attempting to do it. Engine will be pulled at some point this year.
I’ve been leaning toward this as well. Wasn’t sure how much the system adapts and what sensors it’s relying on to make that adjustment. I’m guessing that it’s the pre-cat O2’s. Just curious as to what it’s doing with the MAF info. Is it completely ignored?
Going to run a test tonight with simply clearing all codes and see if misfires and lean codes come back. That should fairly definitively lead me to a different vac leak than the one I resolved. If that’s the case, I’ll have to jump in to logging fuel trims and spray carb cleaner around the intake system to hunt it down.
Just pull the engine liked I did.
Yes pulling the motor is going to be the safest and strongest way to go.
as for clearing the codes. When you clear the codes and start the car the car will run off the maf at first without much input from the 02s until the 02s are up to running temps. The MAF acts as a check system for incoming air. Let us know how the test goes. You will see that when you clear codes you dont get much activity from the 02 sensors at first.
You guys were right. I could’ve saved much time, and prevented many curse words from thrashing the S6 and Audi in general had I simply pulled the motor instead of trying to remedy it whilst still installed. Thanks for the stern but fair direction to the proper solution. You guys are a wealth of knowledge and I’m glad I found this forum. I had issues trying to upload some photos but I’ll make a couple progress updates as they develop. It’ll be a miracle if I don’t have any “extra parts” upon completion.