Skywagon - Intro and questions.

B8 S4
#1

Air Intakes? My first post here. I’m about to cut a hole in my hood and install a NACA inlet as close as I can over my Roc Euro air filter. Obviously some may cringe at this idea? However, I have the parts on order and a plan using an APR Performance (not APR) universal inlet with a stainless steel woven coarse mesh over the intake. I’ll paint the mesh, intake and hardware the same color as the car. Much money has been spent on air intakes, everyone has their opinions. Thanks.

http://aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=266&Itemid=79

#2

yes, I cringe. What’s the point?

Smarter people (no offense) have tried this and found that at street car speeds, this is just about useless. You’ll just end up looking like a ricer, and be no faster.

You have an intercooled small supercharger setup running moderate boost on a 3.0 V6. A naca duct? The guys with the various CPS setups have very manageable IAT numbers. They’re not seeing epic timing retardation. What do you hope to achieve?

You were the guy making ancillary complaints in the thread with that retard Hansel, weren’t you? Why not take some of the advice people have given already (indirectly since you weren’t posting here) on your situation before trying frankly ridiculous solutions.

Yes, you’re a pilot, yes you know everything because you’re an engineer of some sort. I’ve heard it all before. For perspective, try taking a 737 off the ground at 110 mph tomorrow. What’s that…won’t work? Lift isn’t sufficient below a certain speed? You’re starting to approach the principles that make naca ducting on a street car useless.

#3

Ed, First off, welcome to AR… You’ll get much more honest and real feedback here… With that said please DON’T do what you are outlining… It will not help and your car will flat out look stupid… The issue with your car comes down to 3 things… The short shifting tranny, the very low timing #'s, and the weather… The tranny issue can be resolved with a DSG flash so if you decide to switch to GIAC or Revo(supposedly they are coming out with one) or wait on APR you should be good there… The timing is something that you’ll need to discuss with APR or the tuner you choose as it’s way low even in the heat on pump tune… The weather can’t be controlled so you’ll just need to see what the car can do in the fall… We all are slower this time of year… Heck my car only goes 11.9x -12.1 in 80+ heat with DA’s in the 2000-3000 range vs 11.7 all day in below 1000 DA’s…

#4

As usual I agree with primetime. I think you are better of removing your headlight than your idea. I think thats the only way you gonna get decent amount of air charge to the intake at the track.

#5

Understand everything Ron has written, he’s advised me in the past, with sage information. Many folks have spent absurd amounts of money searching for more and cooler air. It seems some think it will be a hack job…it will not. Ram effect can start as low as 40 mph. I have an APR CPS coolant tank infront of my right wheel blocking any air coming in from a headlight removal. I have a slow S-4. Trying to get it faster.
Thanks much.

#6

If you understood everything Ron wrote you would address

  1. your tune’s parameters not being optimized to make power - the ignition timing request is quite low…much lower than other cars we’ve looked at. Ask your tuner why.

  2. your car’s inability to hold a gear to redline - this is killing you. Short shifting at 5800 RPM also means your area under the curve is SEVERELY hampered, and the supercharger is not spinning anywhere near it’s target peak RPM (thus falling WAY short of target peak HP and AUC). You are also then engaging the next gear way down the RPM scale and out of the highest power levels.

  3. your lack of a TCU tune to enable you to raise your car’s redline to 7000 RPM is further limiting your ability to match the facelift MT6 cars and the pre-facelift MT6 and DSG cars

  4. it’s summer. Cars are slower in the summer. Test your car when it’s cooler.

Once you address those you will have a normal S4, and won’t need to re-invent the wheel with a hole in your hood to help reduce intake temps by 2 degrees (and that’s IF you do it right). That’s Primetime’s point. That’s everyone’s point. FOCYS!

#7

Concur with all the above, thanks and that is what I’m attempting to do. I have an 8.5, 2014. All previous APR tunes, are switchable. The 8.5 tunes are not. Something tells me that APR rushed the tune onto the market, maybe not? Also APR does not have a tune for the DSG either, I’m told next year?. I’ve been working with Revo now for 6-8 weeks on a tune for both my ECU and DSG. I’ve been told by them that hey have been working on the 8.5 tunes for several, months in the UK. Hopefully, very soon, I’ll have a verdict.
Thanks, again.

#8

Skywagon welcome.

Can one of the moderators make this intake thread it’s own thread?

I would pm countvohn. I had the same idea you did for a major ram air for the S5. I actually had one of my friends that used to work at March ram air build a prototype. It worked really well. The issue was the maf didn’t like how well it worked.

Vendorzine is full of empty headed people who just can’t wait to be entertained by you trying something new. Audirevolution and everyone here wants everyone to be fast and successful. Don’t take the harsh tone as attacking you but a stern warning against harmful moves.

I’m all for people trying something new. For me I would have loved to have the guys step in and save me from the huge waste of time I underwent.

Still if you really have a big motivation to try it. Take time and document the heck out of it to show the next guy why to possibly not try it.

#9

Care to expand? I find it hard to believe anything getting more air to the filter resulted in: “the maf not liking it”. Fresh cool air is always a good thing when it comes to the engine breathing!

And just FYI. with the ram air system on the old foxbody mustangs, the math showed pretty clearly that it never actually produced a “ram air” effect. Did it help the car by get some nice cool air, definitely! But was there ever a speed the intake was actually “ramming” air into it? No, not at all. I think I’d read previously the car would have to be doing 150+ or something along those lines to even come close (it might of been much higher than that even).

#10

It’s not the air filter that’s the issue. It’s of you create enough ram pressure to disturb the maf.

#11

Hyden, yes please expand on what happened. I’m running a Roc Euro intake with one little tube sensing intake flow/pressure. Is there away to overcome the problem with VCDS? If you want to move the thread please do so.

Maddog, I am attempting to get the inlet positioned directly over the intake. I have no idea how much ram effect will have but the engine will be getting the coolest air it can get.

#12

Definitely please let’s make this it’s own thread. Skywagon if you can make a drawing or something to show what you’re trying to do I can let you know more. Please know I’m not an expert but I can share what I experienced.

#13

Cold air ducting isn’t a bad idea. But obviously heat shielding is the best friend. Something to think about. Even if you had no heat shielding the worst times would be at low speeds. At low speeds cold air ducting obviously isn’t going to be able to provide much of any help. What I found was removing the weather stripping from the front and back of the engine compartment made a big difference in under good temps.

Hayden is right about the ram air on a Audi maf. Me and CV did two local RS4s and even helped with mickf ram air. If you actually achieve top pressure in the maf the car will flip out. At higher speeds when cruising when you get off the throttle the car will stall. Not good.

#14

Is there anyway to overcome the problem with VCDS? Also, the inlet is not going to be directly attached to the Roc Euro intake. It will be above the, what appears to be, a K&N filter on the Roc Euro intake. Do you have any idea how much pressure you were creating to cause the problem? Thanks.

#15

VCDS is diagnostic/monitioring software, sure your can re-write some coding and do a few adaptations, but these issues far exceed the reach of VCDS.

Also, if nothing ever came of the RS4 or S4 Ram air that Justincredible and CV worked on, then the work/$$ probably far exceeded actual gains that were worthwhile.

#16

Ed, I’m not sure about this MAF/airflow issue so I can’t comment… Also, these cars don’t have a MAF in the traditional sense…

Anyway, keep in mind even if you get more air into the intake you’re still going to hit a bottleneck at the TB or the intake itself… This is why I tried a year+ ago to get a larger TB… They will become available once APR launches the new blower… I posted some pics a while ago on here and if I get time later I’ll repost or link them but the inlet past the TB is a total bottleneck… Your readings will go up to levels they should be once you can rev the car out to anything greater than 6200-6300 RPM…

Here’s a better idea and it will cost you $15… Buy a role of header wrap from Summit or an auto parts store and wrap the intake tube with it… This will help slightly with the intake temps and honestly will probably benefit you more than the “ram air” concept…

#17

Ed, I hate to link to QF but they have the link hosted so… Here is a link to something you should read… Actually, every B8 owner should…

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4b8/msgs/15100.phtml

Also, here is a link to my thread with pics I was talking about…

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=385.0

#18

Exactly. Calling it RAM air is a bit of a stretch too. It’s a hole in the hood. A hole in the hood. It’s best use may be for ventillation of heat while stopped and idling.

When an OEM puts a duct, they design the duct and the intake around the duct. They also tune around it. They don’t design the intake to be back left corner of the engine bay, then think…let’s cut a hole! On many older cars, this process was much more simple. As Skypilot has already found out, the ECU in an Audi isn’t so simple. He bought a tune and it appears the car is DEFEATING a lot of what the tune is trying to do. If he creates a new intake system (it all has to be changed…just firing air through the hood at the filter isn’t going to do squat) and routes air directly to a pressurized and contained airbox like the Corvette ZR1 (SC V8 with a duct below the hood that is entirely enclosed and feeds right into the intake manifold/tb) he will then need to find someone to tune for it. That’s what I think lots of people are missing here.

A guy who APR goes to when they run into trouble has already found the small gains from these ‘ram air’ intakes create more problems in tuning then perhaps they are worth. Also in a marketplace where we are talking about $50,000 Audis, not $2,000 foxbody dragcars, cutting holes in the hood in the HOPES of a nearly immeasurable gain, at the cost of recalibrating the entire system…that’s just not happening.

#19

The quattrofail thread isn’t what you’re linking to, is it? If not, just link to the PDF of the Audi B8 S4 engine study guide, hosted at MTM.

http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf

#20

Correct… Was done in haste… Just a good document all should read… Not the most detailed but still lots of goodness so to say…