maybe I am missing it but I really have seen much discussion about water/meth injection. I see this as a huge help to not only the heat but the carbon build up and as a side effect from a cooler charge you get some moderate horse power gains. I used to own /tool around with a Buick regal gs that was supercharged actually by an Eaton roots style blower like the one on the 3.0t. I have herd people say water/meth does not remove old carbon just helps eliminate build up, which for you application would be ideal, but I have seen before and after pictures on showing the carbon that was there before was all but eliminated. Like I said this was on regal gs a pushrod supercharged engine and that may some how make a difference. Still I am planning on purchasing an s6 in the near future and that will be one of the first things I do. If it has been done and readily discussed sorry to bring it up again. If there is a link to where they are sold i’d like it please. I checked snow.net they had nothing I haven’t checked devils own I know there are a few others out there also you can get universal kits, but I see this as a nice way to keep my engine from getting gummed up if nothing else.
Welcome purple
This has been talked about a few times with the rs4 a very similar motor just a V8 and not a v10. The thought of water injection has been tossed around many people thought that methanol injection would be great because methanol would add octane but in the end water or water methanol isn’t a good combo for NA motors. The charge isn’t hot enough to be cooled by water. Keep in mind the blower or turbo air temps can get easily into the 300 degree range. And in boosted cars your using the water to cool the air not the intake. The NA cars don’t get extreme intake air temps so you would just be spraying water into the intake and even doing that won’t cool down the intake as you would have to spray an enormous amount. So much that it would cause a fuel mixture issue.
As for the carbon the Buick you drove in your example I believe was SI where the injectors are in the intake and they spray pretty valve. Doing this cleans the valves of any deposits. FSI sprays fuel post value. This is great for efficiency but bad for cleaning carbon off the valves. Again water or methanol isn’t enough to keep these things clean. You would need to run a lot and you would need to run it all the time.
I am use to FI forced and was interested in helping with cooling I think you are correct the outside air isn’t compressed heat isn’t compounded for the most part air coming in is cool. but the one biggest issues I see people talk about is the carbon build up. I disagree you would need a large amount spray to prevent additional carbon build up, it is only trace amounts of carbon be deposited each time having a mild solvent flowing past the valves could really do some good in a slow clean out and prevention of further build up. I have witnessed the before and after on a system which had some carbon before then almost no carbon build up after. Water/meth would help keep that clean. I guess if you like tearing your system down and cleaning it out by hand that works too but for the $1.99 for a gallon of windshield fluid every other fill up or so might be something to consider.
There are a few people around here who really know what they are talking about when it comes to high performance Audi’s (and cars in general), and when they give technical advice, I never doubt a single word that they say.
Justin is one of those guys.
Carbon on a non FSI car if you wanted to spray water or water methanol would make a small difference as it cam mix with the fuel before it hits the top of the valve. In a FSI car spraying water methonal won’t work due to the amount you need to spray to make an impact. What you don’t know or your just missing is that when you spray water methanol your spraying it with the intention that it will mist and adamize with the air. If you spray enough liquid to not adamize but to actually be a flow of liquid you’ll disturb the air ratio and possibly cause a hydro stall situation. As water isn’t compressible. That’s why motors hydro lock. So if you think you can just use methonal and spray that still you would need a massive amount of methonal to over come bring a fine mist and still have enough mass left to cover and assist in cleaning something off. Ie the valves.
It’s been tried it doesn’t work. It’s more technical then just spraying some extra fluid the amount needed to impact is massive. Think of it in terms of reality. A non FSI motor (SI) is constantly spraying gas on the valves each injection cycle and even with all this fuel you get small amounts of build up. Now you want to tn a FSI motor using a system designed for misting the chemical so it mixes in the air you want to spray enough fluid to do the same work that it took 8 injectors. Think again. As I said the first time it won’t work and when tried it didn’t work.
the formula is simple
- free up the exhaust with some diameter, smoothe out the bends, get straight through perfo core resonators and mufflers, and you may want an x pipe (although I’m not sure how well scavenging works on a V10)
- have the car tuned by someone who understands NA Audi tuning
- install lightweight rotating parts
open element intake and water meth injection are the standard things people try on these cars when they don’t check to make sure someone has tested this stuff before, or when they think it’s a honda civic or a turbo car. Next is a tune that throws a bunch of timing and throttle response at the car (and results in zero gains).
When people realise it’s a naturally aspirated car, they start figuring out that there is not a simple formula for all turbo/sc/NA platforms, and you need to understand your car rather than applying what worked on your old, completely different car.
The water meth injection for carbon buildup has also been shown to do virtually nothing. Kryptonik tried this 6 years ago on his RS4 after paying a couple grand to his tuner. They also added a catch can to see if it works. Again…these are stabs in the dark rather than well thought out ideas. They don’t work.
standard things people try on these cars.
Very well said. And very true.
It’s always great to ask and get informed. It’s good to look for more deep information too but if you want to try something new try something that hasn’t already been done
That is fair enough I can an accept that explanation as to why this may or may not be a good solution to a still bother-some issue. I do see your point in that the volume of injected gunk removing substance would have to be comparable to what the fuel injectors would be producing in a non direct injected engine, and even then as I mentioned before there was some carbon build up that only went away after the addition of water meth system was installed. So to get the same results I would need to create the same conditions as both the fuel injectors and the water meth. Why couldn’t you have just said that gosh… lol just joshing with you, I can be a little dense at times and I appreciate you humoring me, Thank you. conversely I read an article posted by someone who supposedly wrote to audi directly about the issue of carbon build up (according to the poster), Audi recommended several additives to be put into the fuel system ( BG 44K) additive, as well as a combustion chamber (V.I.C.) additive, at regular intervals to prevent/ eliminate carbon build up. They actually listed several more additives that are supposed to be used at regular intervals to help keep everything well lubricated and free of foreign particles. Here is a link for any interested parties.
http://www.audi-forums.com/c6-forum/57878-keep-your-carbon-down.html
as for your formula.
I live in Ohio I could run straight pipes right on through for all they would care, I know a professional with a dyno from way back. light weight parts not so sure to much exists for this platform YET. beyond that the remainder of your reply is nothing but heresay as your backing… Include links? Also wholly unnecessary ending in “They Don’t work”. Such a fantastic point you sure told me. :
The formula has been well proven with the B6/B7 S4 platform, which is very similar to the v10 S6 in many ways. All the guys that broke into the 12s with bolt-on parts (including both Sakimano and Justincredible) followed it
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=741.0
Not sure if you have read the v10 S6 Info Dump yet, but there is much discussion of the formula there, and how it may apply to the v10 S6
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=2614.0
The proof that it works on the v10 is hopefully not far off. I’m following the same formula that Saki outlined for my S6 project car
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=3145.0
In the end, the guys are just trying to save you money, time, and frustration. To do a proper meth kit for the v10 would be expensive. Why waste your time and money on it if it has been proven infective on a very similar platform? My advice, save your money instead, and wait for the S6 project to be completed. There should be a clear path to performance outlined once everything is done and the car is back on the road where performance will be tested.
I guess people take it personally when they have their proposals shot down. Try not to. Spending a lot of money on a project car and ending up with something that is slow and/or unreliable is not fun.
I take the easy route, and just copy what the smart guys have already spent countless hours developing and testing. Trust me, you get a much faster car that way, at a minimal cost
When you listen and engage your never dense. I’m happy to help fill in the blanks where something might not add up for you. As v8 said we are all very technical guys here. Other websites will give you an assistant message if they think you don’t know anything. They will tell you what a great idea it is just so you can bank roll there excitement or there ideas. Always feel free to question. Just make sure to question the guys who actually work on there cars and have tested. So when someone like sakimano says in a blunt fashion don’t do it it won’t work. It’s direct but it’s ment to be serious.
As for the additives that might be a great new post to make as its still in the category but off to the side. The additives kinda help but the examination is long. The issue with additives is that they are sprayed again post valves. And the vales are where all the collection and build up accrues
Thanks guys! I really appreciate you replies I have spent several days researching the out comes of already tested systems. W/m and even in conjunction with a catch can remains ineffective. There is a pre intake valves additive. https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-isc-induction-system-cleaner/
and the only before and after video I have found yet showing any results other than the walnut blast or someone cleaning it out by hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_940215&feature=iv&src_vid=-JvCtCQM2zM&v=biM5-GW4CLQ
The guy happened to have his own borescope which, I looked up found they can be pretty reasonably priced, regardless the results aren’t great but you can see some metal where there was only carbon before. and yes Maybe I should start a new thread since this is way off topic now.
LOL it’s all in the act of science.
One of the big things you want to remember. Your 02 sensors are not easy to get to. Some almost require a motor pull. While you always want to keep the injectors and system clean the reason you don’t want to flush out the carbon is that your just contamination of the 02 sensor. So it’s a hard ballance
Great info, Justin. You are like a human encyclopedia for this stuff. I never would have thought about the negative effect periodically flushing the carbon would have on downstream components.
Its funny, all these ideas that people have (I’ve had some wacky ones myself) for getting rid of the carbon buildup, and in the end the best option always seems to come back to just doing an old fashioned carbon clean every so often. They used to be expensive, but it seems now that the process is more widely know, costs have come down to a more reasonable level.
I did a bunch of research before I bought my S6 to look for a solution for the carbon buildup problem, and finally came to the conclusion that there was none. So, I just factored in the price of the cleanings to the annual maintenance cost of the vehicle. The crazy depreciation on the S6 more than makes up for the extra maintenance, IMHO.
I am there, have looked into a surface blasting system already lol about $300 on ebay fyi borescope $129.99 so you could keep an eye on it.
Hey Andy…go fuck yourself.
Come back when you buy an S6.
Lots of good solutions for cleaning carbon. Ohio is a good place to be. That’s close to the R&D location on V8’s car.
Thanks Saki, I’ll take that as a fond welcome. So thanks it’s good to be here.