who has the jhm R series pressure plate?

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

hey guys… having some trouble here. i recently purchased a 3R setup from jhm, installed it and had vibrations at 3500 rpm, 4500, 5500, etc… and the engagement point was so low that when trying to get into first gear with the clutch pedal pressed to the floor it was hard to get in because of the clutch not disengaging 100%. put the pressure plate upside down on a flat surface to find 4 of the pressure plate fingers were not matched up to the others, and that also showed with the markings on the throwout bearing, so 500 miles later i took it out, purchased a core from jhm to get a new throw out with pressure plate so i can get it all bolted up again in time for h2oi… took out the aftermarket metal slave and Stainless steel line, and put a new oem, and oem hydraulic line in."

pick up the car today, a week and a half later, and the test drive was perfect. engagement point was at a stock level, i was happy, no more vibrations, oem slave and line is installed, feeling good! driving home 20 miles on the highway and get off to drive on the city roads to break in the clutch so the material can transfer over, and at the first stop light i get to the engagement point is back to being super low, hard to get into first gear when the car is ON, if I’m on a slight hill rolling forward, and put it in reverse with the clutch to the floor, the car WONT roll forward, indicating that the clutch is still staying engaged(or dragging).

what are your assumptions? Is it really possible to receive 2 pressure plates in a row that are defective?

**when i did the clutch job i replaced everything with oem parts, fork, guide sleeve, bolts, pivot plastic thing, etc and lubed in necessary area’s all performed by an audi class A tech.

#2

You either A)have the worst luck ever or B) really need to stop letting the same guy work on your car. I don’t care what “class” of an Audi tech he says he is.

When you installed the new 3R clutch in the first place, was this also the first time you put the metal slave and line on?

Then on this install of the replacement pressure plate you had your mechanic swap back to new stock slave? or your old one?

Don’t get upset, but does your guys know how to bleed these slaves correctly? Helps to have the rear end a little higher than the front.

I’m sure you’ve seen this, but if your “guy” thinks he is too good to follow directions, only you are the one suffering the consequences. On a part that is very important to you car to transfer the engine power to the wheels…following directions to a T should be most important.

http://jhmotorsports.com/instructions/JHM_B6-B7_S4-RS4-and_30v-V6_clutches_and_flywheels.pdf

Anyone can say “I’ve installed a clutch before, I don’t need any stinking directions”…let’s be real though, these are honda civics or some underpowered shit box. Improper installation will show it’s face in a hurry.

#3

I doubt there is a design flaw. One reason is that JHM have been running their R series clutches with no problem on high torque applications.

Where I am, the “Audi techs” are the last people I’d trust with this sort of job. Are you near Prime Motoring in East Rutherford NJ. I’d probably start there for a mechanic more suited to this sort of thing. Get a 2nd opinion

Edit:

http://i.imgur.com/mLgtCmh.png

#4

I have helped many guys with the install of the R series pressure plates. Here are my thoughts on what you posted.

Vibrations come from the plate not being mounted flush or something is out of balance.

If you have issues getting the clutch to release or to go into gear it can mean that the PP is not flush. If you don’t use the proper bolts or proper locktite the bolts will back out and the plate will not be flush. When the plate isn’t flush the clamp load isn’t flush and one side of the disk is still going to be grabbing.

If the fingers on the clutch don’t line up and some are more up then others. This too is telling you that the pp wasn’t flush. Watch when you tighten down the PP. When you tighten down the PP the fingers will move up. IF you don’t tighten the PP Down properly you will have some fingers more up then others and this will result in uneven disk contact or no ability for the disk to be released.

When you see markings on the thorw out bearing. YOU KNOW THE PP WAS INSTALLED WRONG. The PP is simple it cant move its sandwiched in. If you install it wrong by not tightening down the bolts in the proper pattern or you have bolts backing out thats the only way for the fingers to be effected. They would have to break off to be the PP’s fault.

You can go so far as to say the flywheel might be off as that can be an issue. But your tech should be able to see that when installing the clutch. I would send the PP back to JHM and they will tell you more. Honestly this sounds like a install issue. Not you so don’t take that personally. But the symptoms are 100% what I have seen with install issues. You have to know the PP and its fingers are locked into place and can’t be effected. You would have to install something wrong or have bolts backing out to effect the fingers.

#5

The metal slave I’ve had for 2 yeArs on my past 2 JHM stage 4’s…
The pressure plate was installed using JHM directions…

Everything torqued to spec, nothing more. Loctite was used.

I’m thinking with my milage, 137k miles is it possible the clutch master is failing? Not having enough pressure hold for the new heavier pressure plate?

#6

Also the flywheel was measured and spin with a tool Audi used to measure high and low spots and it passed. Nothing stood out as not normal.
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y318/rs4tony/A52ACB8C-526A-4ED2-BACE-906A73329470.jpg

First 3r pressure plate pics with 500 miles.


http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y318/rs4tony/4D583A26-3A2D-49DA-989A-71FD37774351.jpg


http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y318/rs4tony/48F72E46-22A9-4E8F-9EB6-4E212121F83C.jpg


http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y318/rs4tony/4734F6FD-D06B-4E1D-B380-C54E0FF981CC.jpg

#7

ITs hard to say but when you say the fingers were off that says something was wrong with the install or at some point in time the bolts backed off.

The PP is a plan and simple thing. Its a flat ring with springs. The the throw out bearing pushes the fingers and they move the springs and lift the ring. They are sandwiched in there there is no where for them to go or to move. They only way there can be an issue with the fingers is if they break or the plate starts to shift. If the PP isn’t bolted down properly or comes loose on one of the points the distrbution of the load gets shifted to the weakest point and you ALWAYS See that in the fingers.

At this point I would say there are so many of these clutches in cars from the B5 S4 B6 and B7 S4s and RS4s including superchared cars from APR to JHMs cars. I have not seen or heard of one of them having issues with the master.

I think the best answer is to have JHM look at the PP they will be able to tell you right away what the issue was. I know its not a enjoyable thing to hear but about 98% of the time. When we have seen or heard of issues like your talking about. It was an install issue.

#8

The picture you shows didn’t look far enough out of spec to have any release issues but then again its a picture. THE ONLY WAY FOR THE FINGERS to get out of shape in on bolting it down with more Tq in some bolts then others. This isn’t exactly something new but it dosn’t look bad enough to do what your talking about.

Try bleeding the system again and see if it comes back. I havent see it be an issue but thats not to say that it couldn’t be.

#9

So just for the record. What is “the way” to bleed the slave…

#10

To keep things best for you how did you bleed the slave.

#11

I have to ask for the details but I believe Power bled, pressurize the brake fluid res and crack the bleeder nipple, on a lift, same way we’ve done it for the metal slave and other JHM stage 4.

#12

forgot to mention this is a brand new - never used, most current version from Audi —> slave and hydraulic line.

#13

Try bleeding the system again and see if you get the pedal back.

#14

but what is “the way” to bleed the system… according to you guys

#15

[quote=jaybquick@JHM]Being that I sell alot of transmission related parts (shifters, linkage upgrades, clutches, flywheels, transmission rebuild kits, etc.) I have been getting more and more calls with tech questions regarding our good friend the slave cylinder.

So I figured I would summarize the common problems and the best bleeding procedure for the DIY guy. Obviously a pressure bleeder is the OEM recommended way, but I doubt many of you have those.

IMPORTANT TIP New as of 5-11-09
We have found that if you try to bleed the clutch with the car NOT completely level. Like if you just jack up the front. You will almost NEVER be able to bleed it completely or will make it take forever. This traps air bubbles in one of the upper corners. So make sure the rear of your car is level with the front of your car and if not level even a little higher than the front. The key is to not have the front higher than the rear. We have always bled ours when the cars were level and routinely do it in 5 minutes or so. Well recently I was lazy and tried to do one with just the front of the car up and I couldn’t get it to bleed for me no matter what I did. I thought about it and it hit me why. So I jacked the back of the car up and BOOM, it bleed quickly. Hope this new tip helps some that are struggling.

NOTES:
The Slave Cylinder uses the same reservoir as the brakes, which requires a Dot 4 brake fluid. And of course we sell them here --> Clutch Slave and Master Cylinder

INSTALLING PROPERLY:
This is a commonly improperly installed item during a clutch job or any trans pull. First off I highly recommend not unhooking the hose from the slave unless you are replacing the slave cylinder. I recommend you just undo the 1 6mm allen(hex) bolt that holds it in place and leave the slave in the car still attached to the hose. This will save you the pain of bleeding. IMPORTANT: When you put the slave cylinder back in the trans (only after the trans is completely bolted back up to the motor) it should not slip in super easily especially if it has not been replaced and has no air in the system. You should also always start by putting a thin layer of grease on the outside of the boot where it goes into the trans so it does not catch and hang up when putting it in, this helps a lot. You have to make sure the pushrod goes into the clutch fork, this is very important or you can pop the piston and rod clean out of the slave cylinder and run the risk of it falling into the bellhousing and need to be removed by pulling the trans again. Then have to buy a new one, since you don’t want to risk it leaking once you figure out how to reassemble it, if you even can. When it hits the fork you will feel steady resistance and takes time to get it to compress and push fluid back into the brake reservoir (be patient and keep pressure, it takes strength to do this). Once it is in, it will drop into a catch on the trans that will hold it in place, at this point just reinstall the 6mm allen (hex) bolt and tighten it down. If it goes in super easily you most likely missed hitting the clutch fork with the push rod. However, if you have a new slave cylinder that you installed or have air in the system for any other reason it will be pretty easy to install. So another way to confirm engagement is push on the clutch pedal with your hand, not foot. It should give you resistance if it is not full of air. It should also feel funny the first time if you have a SAC style clutch pressure plate (OEM or RS4 type) since the SAC mechanism is setting itself. If you push the clutch pedal and it feels like it bottoms out and gets very hard, DO NOT FORCE IT. You are feeling the piston bottom out in the bore since the pushrod is not engaged into the shift fork and if it you press it one more time, POP goes the piston and rod out of the slave cylinder. Hope this info helps you with your transmission and or clutch install.

BLEEDING

** NOTE: You usually have to crack the bleeder screw .5 to 1 full turn to get any fluid/air to come out. **

Similarly to Brakes, Clutch hydraulics (slave or master) need to be bled after being opened or when a component is replaced. Also, you always need to make sure the brake/clutch fluid reservoir is full and stays above the level of the hose that comes out the side of the reservoir, this hose is what feeds the Clutch Master Cylinder so if the level gets below this hose you will then start sucking air into the clutch hydraulics and have to start your bleeding procedure all over again.

NEW CYLINDERS OR FULLY DRAINED SYSTEMS. With all that air in there, it will just aerate the fluid and never bleed if you try the old pump it up and then hold it to the floor routine and then have someone crack the bleeder after. INSTEAD crack the bleeder FIRST, then push the pedal to the floor and hold it. Then while still holding the pedal to the floor close the bleeder. Then pull the pedal up, only once the bleeder is closed. Repeat this procedure several times until fluid comes out. Once fluid comes out then do it at least 2 more times to be careful. At that point you can switch to the old pump it up and hold it to the floor method. To do that, you just pump the clutch pedal several times, then hold it to the floor. While the pedal is on the floor crack the bleeder and then close. Repeat this 2 to 4 times just to be sure. At this point the pedal should feel great. Once you think you have it, give it a 30 minute break to make sure any incedental aeration settles down. Then come back and bleed it one more time, if you hear or see air do it again. If at any point you start with the pump it up first then crack it method you should give it a 30 minute break to let the aeration go away in the fluid. Once you aerate the fluid and just keep trying, you will be there forever and it will never bleed properly. PATIENCE AND PROPER PROCEDURE ALWAYS PREVAIL.

FINAL BLEEDING IF YOU ONLY HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AIR IN THE SYSTEM
For this the old pump it up and hold it to the floor method usually works fine. To do that, you just pump the clutch pedal several times, then hold it to the floor. While the pedal is on the floor crack the bleeder and then close. Repeat this 2 or more times just to be sure. At this point the pedal should feel great. Once you think you have it, give it a 30 minute break to make sure any incidental aeration settles down. Then come back and bleed it one more time, if you hear or see air do it again. NOTE: Once you aerate the fluid and just keep trying, you will be there forever and it will never bleed properly. You must step away for at least 30 minutes to get the fluid to not be aerated.

GRAVITY BLEEDING
This is a great technique when you replace the slave cylinder to save you headache and time.

  1. Get the new slave cylinder installed; bolted in completely and connected to the hose.
  2. Make sure the brake fluid reservoir is full (clutch master and slave share this reservoir with the brakes)
  3. Crack the bleeder screw at least 1 full turn (360 degrees) to 2 full turns (720 degrees0
  4. Put a drop pad or rag below it on the ground.
  5. Take a break and within 5 to 30 minutes you should see fluid dripping out.
  6. Once the fluid starts dripping tighten down the bleeder.
  7. It is now about 90% ot 95% bled and now you may only have to do the above bleeding procedures once or twice. This saves a lot of headache and aerated fluid.

I hope this info can be of use to you guys, this info is free as a courtesy for your continued help and support of my business.

NOTE:All JHM customers that buy their parts us get this kind of knowledge and tech help. So be careful who you buy from. Can you call on them for help when your car is apart and you are stuck??? Also, due to our higher email(preferred contact method) and call volume as of late we obviously have to help our paying customers first and sometimes can’t get to other emails or calls for a day or so. I would love to help everyone but I can’t so I do the fairest thing I can, help those who help me.

Thank you everyone for your continued support. Keep checking out our new store for new aftermarket and replacement parts. We are adding new products every week and are seeking out more suppliers and new accounts. If it is not on our store yet, we can most likely get it within a few days at a great price.
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#16

Roger that.

#17

now just so i can get an understanding, what is the 3R set up clutch pedal feel like? engagement point? stiffness? etc. thanks

#18

It will be impossible to explain the stiffness, but engagement point should be explainable. PM Mistro or Axel.

Also, I’m not sure if you understand this, but the only thing that differs between the clutch kits is the disk (1R, 3R, 5R) the same pressure plate is used for all different disk applications.

#19

Yes that I understand. It’s just the different discs.

#20

What I don’t understand is how did my engagement point go from - about stock feel-(like JHM mentions it should be) to almost right off the fire wall and not disengaging 100% after a 20 mile Highway* drive?? Can the heat make the clutch disc expand ever so slightly and cause it to not release 100% because of expansion?

I just don’t see how it was fine for the first 20 miles then went to a super low engagement point.