Why do people love the 60-130 mph test and fear the dragstrip?

General Discussion
#21

Video is required on 6speedonline generally, also with AZ.

There is nothing that can verify a specific car.

In my case since I never released a video to the public, you can see that my car hits .8g in all my ECUx logs because of my down low tq, I also hit .8g in my 60-130 log, nice to see some things are consistent accross measurments.

Very few cars exist that can do a single gear 60-130 run and be faster, so if I found one to fool you guys that would be incredible. I have a ton of 60-130 logs, I started around 6.5, and then got down to 5.9 with a shift, and then down to 5.7 without. Deep went 5.4 with more power and different setup on race. I highly doubt there is anything to be sceptical about, I really do not know any cars that fast in Washington.

I also think Justin will need to do specific 60-130 runs to improve times, shift points, start points, etc. Not just doing 1/4.

I am planning on getting video from here on out, for all runs, FATS, 60-130, Etc. I should have something in a couple weeks to post.

#22

I’m sure AZ will cream over the dyno, FATS and 60-130.

I’m also sure this site would in general prefer to see some decent quarter mile results out of your car (and ‘Deep’ and ‘PearlS4’ and really any car). Hopefully you guys get a chance to go.

#23

So I know we’re talking about this in several threads, but I had an interesting “discussion” with a friend about 1/4, 60-130, dyno, etc.

I personally love the 1/4 as a test of a cars overall performance, but obviously the big hp rwd guys started looking at 60-130 as a new means to test their car and eliminate the driver as much as possible (i.e. a dyno more or less).

The argument, I mean discussion, basically wrapped up with him saying that if he went to the track, and lost to a car by ~3-4 car lengths, but then as they headed home, did a pull from 60-140/150 and won by ~3+ car lengths, he felt it was ridiculous for the other car to say they were “faster” (which turned out to be the real root of the problem, how to define that term). This boiled down to him saying the car with more hp will always win (more being 50-100+hp more etc, not 10/15hp “more”), which is tough to argue about in the 60-130, as it’s just setting the trap speed.

My retort was that you might as well just race dyno plots rather than anything else. But with more and more big hp cars coming about, more and more flop in the 1/4 but set stunner 60-130 times (some like UR etc still set very impressive times, but for the # built by all sort of tuners, you know what I mean). Obviously there’s a lot that goes into a 1/4 where the 60-130 is a more isolated test of power. But I understand his definition of “faster” to an extent.

So I just wanted to see what people thought of that.

What kinda got it started was talking about my car and his car (SRT10 viper, tuned, HFC, Corsa CB, Intake, new geared rear diff, 485whp 475wtq). Due to his lack of traction I can hang with him decently down low, and would love to race him from a dig, but he’s never launched it and probably won’t. But on the interstate, that car HAULS ASS. I think at the strip he would set a pretty horrid 1/4 (horrid considering mods, never been before, etc. Stock they claim 12.2@122), but his trap would be decently good.

We also have a friend with a 997 Turbo S, they’ve been shown to do 10.7@128 stock with a 2.7 0-60. But on the interstate, the same car only put about 2-3 car lengths on a 335 with JB3, meth, intake (what should be ~380-400whp) from about ~60-115. The Turbo might be a bit skewed though, b/c it gets to 60 SO fast & in short a distance that it has extra time to build mph for the trap (vs a late spooling car that starts slower and then has a rush of power). In that example, the Turbo should have at least 100whp if not close to 130whp more, but yet only pulled a couple of car lengths. Not the result any of us expected.

Now that he has his viper, he wants to run again as it seems significantly faster (and has dyno’d about 100whp more than his 335 probably would have). So again, interesting perspective. IF they run again, he’d hold pretty darn close to the Turbo depending what mph they start at. But on the 1/4, the Turbo would beat a stock one by over a full second (~10+ car lengths) and probably beat him by a solid to 2 seconds if not more (PDK with Launch control, so it’s gonna be consistent).

This largely boils down to area under the curve vs peak and/or total hp, and driver/car ability (launch control etc). The 60-130 basically is just a dyno run, but some people only do pulls with other people in that scenario. For me, the closest 1/4 track is an hour & half away, no one really races from a dig, and the people who do go do pulls, all do them on the remote interstate starting at 40-60 and shutting down whenever they feel like it.

#24

Found it pretty funny when looking for SRT-10 60-130 times. These are from a Viper Forum! Found the comments pretty funny since most write off 60-130 and yet these are RWD cars with 500whp/wtq

#25

^dont forget gearing with area under the curve and how it fits in the speed range you want to race in, and also how load will affect different cars

#26

[quote]My retort was that you might as well just race dyno plots rather than anything else. But with more and more big hp cars coming about, more and more flop in the 1/4 but set stunner 60-130 times (some like UR etc still set very impressive times, but for the # built by all sort of tuners, you know what I mean). Obviously there’s a lot that goes into a 1/4 where the 60-130 is a more isolated test of power. But I understand his definition of “faster” to an extent.
[/quote]
See…if you look around, the only guys who are grasping at 60-130 as ‘the measurement’ are the tuners and buyers of tuning company big hp products that frankly don’t work very well in the real world (the speeds we drive at every day…basically 0-whatever you want. No cars start running at 60mph. They all start at 0 and work their way up).

Your analogy of losing the 1320 but winning a high MPH pull tells us a story. If your car is a well sorted big power car, you’re not going to get smoked at the quarter mile and then kill the guy 60-130. If that’s the case, your tune sucks or your driving sucks or both. Simple as that. But it has nothing to do with what test makes sense.

DON’T FORGET - ALMOST ALL BIG POWER CARS RUN 60-130 DURING THEIR DRAGSTRIP PASS

So again, these guys who want 60-130 but avoid the strip are compensating for their car’s inability to run from 0-60 mph…which is ironically the speed range their car will be driven 99.9% of its life. If your build makes your car useless from 0-60 mph…especially if it’s an AWD car…there’s something really wrong with the build.

If you look at the following: Road & Track, Automobile Mag, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, EdmundsInsideline, Top Gear etc.

NONE of them use 60-130 for anything. They all use 0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile to measure acceleration and the ‘worth’ of a car’s power. I just think that the 60-130 helps you hide from weaknesses in your build. You’ll notice that the biggest power cars in the world of tuning these days are UnderGroundRacing cars and the Hennessey cars, as well as some of the retarded GTR tuners. These guys ALL run their cars at the dragstrip FIRST. Go on youtube and look for UR videos…and you’ll find 150 quarter mile videos and like 2-3 60-130 videos. Nobody cares when the shit works. People only cling to the 60-130 as the be all and end all once they flop at the dragstrip. The 600-700 whp UR cars run 10s like it’s nothing. They run 9s when they get bigger power. They run 8s after that. The one Viper on the poweglide ran 7.77 @ 130…because he HIT THE BRAKES before the end of the track. He has since trapped 200mph. They aren’t complaining that the 1/4 mile isn’t fair.

As for the ‘big power needs 60-130’ and ‘1/4 mile isn’t a fair measurement for big power cars’ that’s utter bullshit because let’s really look at this. The big power OEM cars absolutely fucking KILL IT in the quarter mile. They aren’t running mid 12s with tons of excuses. These cars all come with 500+ hp from the factory. These cars all run the quarter mile in the 10s and 11s. Elapsed Times keep dropping. Trap Speeds keep climbing. NONE of them are making excuses. NONE of them are getting slower as the cars get stronger. NONE of the periodicals are talking about irrelevant 60-130…because they don’t need to. OEM can tune.

Bugatti SuperSport 1182 hp - 9.9 @ 146
Bugatti Veyron 1001 hp - 10.2 @ 142.9
Saleen S7 Turbo 750 hp - 10.6 @ 139
Corvette ZR1 638 hp - 11.3 @ 128
Lamborghini Murcielago 670 SV 670hp - 10.9 @ 129
Mercedes SLR McLaren 617 hp - 11.5 @ 126
Ferrari 599 GTB 611hp - 11.2 @ 129.3
Porsche Carrera GT 605 hp - 11.3 @ 131
Ferrari 458 570 hp - 11.0 @ 128
Lamborghini Gallardo SL 562 hp - 11.0 @ 129
Porsche Panamera Turbo S 550 hp - 11.6 @ 121
Nissan GTR 530 hp - 11.1 @ 124
Porsche 997t s II PDK 530 hp - 10.7 @ 129
Corvette Z06 505 hp - 11.5 @ 126

#27

cool. Can we see the video of your 60-130 then?

#28

while we’re at it…the HPF E46 M3 guys are big 60-130 lovers. Why? the cars just flat don’t work until big speeds. They run 12s at the dragstrip all the time…then blame the track’s traction. It’s pretty funny shit. Shit tuning.

#29

I agree the big hp awd cars don’t have much to stand on. But the big hp rwd cars (that don’t have widebodys for bigger tires, seriously advanced traction control, and aren’t running slicks/rcompound/etc) really struggle to hook up prior to decent speeds. Not an excuse b/c that’s the nature of the car, but as an example, the rear end will get pretty loose in the viper when it’s punched at 50mph in third gear even! Even BMW M division hinted that they may look into AWD for the next M5 b/c it’s reached a hp limit that traction can keep up with.

Driver skill is where the rest of it is needed in those scenarios b/c it’s obvious that some seriously fast 1/4 times have been set by similar cars (but yet the kill stories by much weaker cars are abundant due to the right driver not being behind the wheel of the high hp rwd car). I can’t figure out the HPF M3’s, I’d think someone would have sorted them out by now to set some decent times.

The final argument I hear about the bigger hp guys and the 60-130mph test, is that the big hp guys might not be much faster in a 1/4 than some cars, but that they continue to accelerate much more than cars that set similar et or even trap in some cases. I.e. if you took a high hp rwd car and had him run the standing mile vs a car that set similar time/trap in the 1/4, the difference in the standing mile would be much greater. So given that they are just beginning to tap into their performance band (60mph+), the cars haven’t been given the opportunity to stretch their legs more to show their strengths (which you should be good at everything, not just one thing obviously).

I’m just here to share a story and in truth, some interesting view points. It all comes down to bragging rights and cock measuring in reality. And our argument ended with, if a car was faster in the 1/4, but got beat fairly solid in a interstate roll, the “faster” car would be the more dominate interstate victory (in his opinion, b/c as said, no one around here runs from a dig, it’s all “lets hop on the interstate”).

Another comparison of this, is if you shortened it to the 1/8th mile, I’d probably beat his viper every time, but if we roll from 40-120, he’s gonna put several car lengths on me. Then Jay’s SC S4 has run 11.9 which is similar ET to a viper srt10 with a good driver, but there’s 8+mph difference between the two as well.

So going back to the B5 big turbo guys, what happens if one of them runs 11.5 @ 135, obviously they missed a lot down low or shit tune, but it’s still crossing that line damn fast, and if you pull up to one on the interstate, it’s gonna be goodbye. (yes, VAST & JHM have done 130+ and/or in the 10’s, so arguably better “all round car” I’m just tossing ideas out there and it doesn’t have to be about the B5 guys

The standing mile is just a novelty act to me. Extremely extremely impressive what type of numbers & power is being driven, but it’s never part of you’re daily drive (but most of those aren’t a DD anyhow).

#30

see its just not true (the RWD car thing). It’s just an easy excuse to explain away your build’s shortcomings or your terrible driving.

Last time I checked, Z06 and ZR1 look pretty fucking special at the dragstrip, as do big power Vipers, Ford GTs. If you’re really struggling to put up a respectable time, it’s your tune or it’s the driver. Or both. Or your car just isn’t what your dyno sheet says it is. Don’t forget to read the magazine times…those are all bone stock cars with full tanks of pump gas and street tires.

p.s. as I said above, don’t forget…the ‘interstate’ pull is bullshit too.

Quarter mile = 0-1320 feet. For a big power car it equals 0-130 mph.

Interstate pull = 40, 50 or 60 to 130 mph.

If you check out your timeslip for my ‘slow’ B7 Rs4, you’re hitting the 60 foot mark around the top of 1st gear (30-40 mph) after 1.8-1.9 seconds. You’re hitting 60 mph by around 200 feet after 4.3-4.5 seconds. The big power cars are hitting 60mph before 200 feet. So they have 60-130 mph…or an 1120 foot long race.

If you’re killing a guy in the quarter mile…but he’s killing you on the interstate, there’s something terribly wrong with his car, or the driver…because how is he killing you in the final 1120 feet but losing so much ground in the first 200 feet that you’re making up his 60-130 advantage and then some to beat him soundly by 1320 feet?

Do you know how hard it is to give up about 5-6 car lengths in 200 feet at those slow speeds? Do you know how hard you have to fuck up to give a guy that much of a lead in that short a race? Your 1/8th mile analogy is interesting. You’re not beating him by a full second to the 1/8th though. Maybe 2-3 tenths if he’s a terrible driver…and his MPH is already slaughtering you by then (my Gtech Pro RR came from a VIPER owner and he had a bunch of dragstrip passes on it. There’s on there for the 1/8th. 0-60 mph in 3.6 seconds. 0-100 mph in 7.0 seconds. 1/8th mile in 6.9@99.5. You’re not beating that car. If you are, your friend sucks at driving . That viper was modded, but even if it’s stock, he’s getting through the 1/8th in 7.5 on a bad day. You’d be hard pressed to beat or even match him there).

Your analogy will likely not even make sense on a 1/16th mile dragrace…or the 330 foot. Even then, by 330 feet, the strong cars have sorted traction out and are starting to tear through third gear. For example, my stock B7 RS4 330 foots in like 5.40…but fast cars are already done the 330 foot in 4.5-4.75 seconds…a full 7 tenths quicker. 7 tenths ahead of me, they’re going 80 mph. They’re already killing me. Again, if you’re beating that guy, he can’t drive or his tune sucks. Or both.

#31

The more power you make the harder it is to hook it up. Plus I’m thinking the corvette and fit a larger tire in the back…

#32

also some suspensions are going to be better suited for drag racing, at a certain point youre going to have to sacrifice the audi-ness to go faster, a la the satans child B5 and the I5T A5 shell

#33

to investigate this comment, can a tial guy comment on what kind of boost he makes in 1st and 2nd? 1st and 2nd are pretty short, and I’m thinking the car may not load up much at all, may not make boost, may not put those turbos into their efficiecny range (sounds like they like a big pressure ratio), and so the car may not make much power in lower gears. 3rd is nice and tall, loads up the motor, spins the turbo up and the car starts moving.

so boost in 1st/2nd if anyone knows?

#34

I guess I dont get the big deal about why people like to also run the 60-130 times… I think the biggest thing of all is the inconvience of going to the track. Going out on the road and grabbing 1 or 2 gears and going 60-130 is a fun easy thing to do. I realize that AZ should verify the times on the v-box, and I think that they will get better at that, but it is a fun thing to do and guage your car against some of the other cars out there. Its all in good fun. I love anything that consists of burning as much fossil fuel as possible via drag race, street race, and or 60-130,140,150,160 etc… 8)

Now to start another potential debate…
what do you guys think about the 1/4 mile accuracy on the v-box? Is it accurate in speed and time? I know that the dyno’s that to it are pretty accurate within a tenth or so but wondering if anyone has vboxed theie track times???

#35

Good points. It’s all fun for sure. I don’t think there’s a real anti 60-130 rebellion or anti-dyno movement. Most people love seeing/comparing numbers for cars from all three (dyno, 60-130, ragstrip, whatever). The concern this thread was started about (and it seems a lot of other people in B5 S4 land are thinking the same way) is because of the 60-130 lovers who rail against the drasgstrip whenever possible, and try to discredit it. The reason for that is simple…those people or their cars suck at the dragstrip lol.

I think the dragstrip shines a light on how your car accelerates doing what you do every day a bunch of times…accelerate from a stop, and accelerate through the lower gears. We all like to accelerate our cars. Now, I don’t think many of us go from the speed limit to the redline in 4th gear too often so I don’t quite get the fascination with how cars do up there and up there only (60-130). It’s kinda weird. But stil, it’s fine to do as a test. Just gotta be careful.

As for pbox vs. dragstrip timing I bet they’re really close. My GTECH is pretty much spot on for time, but the MPH is not. It overestimates MPH. When I went 12.94 @ 107 it said 12.91 @ 109.7. Of course some people say the lane I was in at my track reads low mph, but I don’t really buy that.

I happen to have a PBOX as well…so I’ll bring it next time to compare. I know that on a private track, but not a dragstrip, I did a pbox quarter mile run and it was showing 12.9-13.0 @ 108 pretty much every time (on a flat surface) so I suspect it’s going to be pretty much bang on.

Strangely I get better 60 foot times on pavement than I do at the dragstrip.

#36

Haha thats a good point saki:

60-130mph - usually done on a public road, illegal. Potential for big fine, 7 day suspension and confiscation of your car round these parts.

1/4 mile: 100% legal.

#37

I did it once on my friend’s private airstrip. I didn’t have a PBOX, so was using the on board timer to measure, and ended up going a bit too far past the 130, but it only took something like 13.something seconds to go 60-138 for a ‘slow’ 420 hp RS4, so you can get it done quick but yeah…getting busted for that would suck on a public road. You’d be in the newspaper for sure.

#38

Most of the times you can hook petter on good clean pavement or ass fault then at the track, guess better roads…
I also know a lot of self claimed good drivers out there and have a huge ego and shitty ability, and they get excitible and everything else that makes it hard to launch and run the 1/4 mile well! I can see how it is easier for sure to flex your hot rod ability on a 60-130 pull because it is EASY!

I understand the b5 soap opera superstars being 1/4 mile haters because they cannot drive, however it does give you a good idea how you would do in a roll race by doing a 60-130 time…

Speaking of which I want to rend the dragstrip this summer a few times it is a blast who is near Michigan???

S6atron!!!

#39

Yeah buddy! I’d love to be able to come back for the rental this summer. We need to make it to waterfest and H2O this year

#40

where in Michigan are you guys? I think we could get a pretty good group together for a dragstrip rental if it’s near Detroit

Milan costs a fortune
the other ghetto one without signs is cheap as chips. They give you timeslips, but no giant signs showing the times unfortunately…(or fortunately if you fuck up lol)