Why do people love the 60-130 mph test and fear the dragstrip?

General Discussion
#1

I have been wondering about the 60-130 for quite some time now. It seems like there is a standard formula:

If your car makes big dyno power, you love the 60-130. You refuse to run the 1/4 mile saying ‘I don’t want to break my car’ or ‘my car’s gearing isn’t ideal for the 1/4 mile’. I just find it really strange that the 60-130 superstars almost NEVER run the quarter mile…and when they do, they almost ALWAYS suck at it.

Which is weird, because a fast car will get to 60mph in about 3.5 seconds in about 100 feet…and will then have to run from 60 mph to about 130mph in the remaining 1200 feet to the 1320 foot mark where trap speed is measured. These guys are saying their car isn’t made for the dragstrip…but it is made for the 60-130? The 60-130 is 92% of the dragstrip…the only thing that’s missing is the first 100 feet! Launching the car isn’t easy to perfect, but it’s not THAT hard to do well…and certainly isn’t a reason to avoid the strip and it’s impartial third party, certified timing devices.

A little history on the 60-130 times…they were a preferred method of measuring BIG power 996 GT2 Porsches because the RWD 996 GT2 couldn’t really get great traction, and when big turbod or tuned for big power, they tended to spin the fuck out of even the 2-3 shift. So did the 996 turbos that were making big power, despite the AWD system. A solution? Start in 3rd gear, and measure a rip up to 130mph, which was a solid trap speed in the quarter mile. Fast forward 5-6 years, and now the 60-130 is the biggest thing for the big power B5 S4 guys. Why?

My theory is simple - it’s easy to do a 1 gear or 2 gear pull…and it’s easy to paste a graph into a thread to show how fast you are. The former is important because if your tune sucks, but your turbos work well, you’ll still be pretty fast. The latter is important because if you’re lying and cheating, you can do so pretty easily by claiming a time. The Audizine ‘official’ list is basically a screen print jpeg to be ‘king’…and in fact, you can just spout out a “I ran 6.3 seconds in my stage III GT car” and everyone coos and woos at your greatness. No vetting process whatsoever. The 6speedonline guys can’t post their own chart showing the run. They have to email the PBOX data file to a list adminstrator who then checks the numbers vs. elevation etc (downhill helps obviously, so they chuck out times beyond I think a -1% grade). The admin also checks your gear shift vs. your car’s tranny (so you don’t post a Murcielago’s PBOX file and claim it is your Audi S4 etc. Then they get added if everything checks out. Great! Unfortunately nobody else running a 60-130 list does that. They just trust people (AND TUNERS SELLING STUFF) at their word. Really? I guess there have never been Audi tuners who got caught cheating lol (ASP, PES, MOTODYNE etc.)

So…here’s the question? If we all drive quattro enabled Audi S4s…why the fuck do we care about traction issues in 1st and 2nd gears? The Corvette Z guys don’t complain and they’re RWD. They have a 1/4 mile list. The MOPAR guys on lxforums don’t complain and they have RWD cars. They have a 1/4 mile list. Basically the only forum that uses the 60-130 is the 6speedonline Porsche guys (and now GTR guys if you can believe it…a car that is PERFECT in the 1/4 mile). Why are the Audis copying this performance metric to see who the king B5 S4 is???

The answer for why Audi owners are avoiding the quarter mile in my mind is often one of these things:

1. the car is poorly tuned, so exposing it to a 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 (and maybe 4-5) shift in front of an audience with a timeslip they can’t fix will reveal this
2. the driver (and his tuner lol) claims he sucks and doesn’t want to be embarassed (although is it possible they ALL suck…the 60-130 lovers and dragstrip haters? I mean it’s not hard to run the 1/4 mile if you’ve actually tried it. Those who say it is hard either have poorly tuned cars and are making excuses for their shitty runs, or they have never tried. I’ve made 100 passes and my first 10 weren’t way better than my last 10. You’re basically sprinting from a stop like you do once or twice a day at a light to jump in front of other cars etc…and ripping through the first 4 gears like you do on every on-ramp you face. THAT’S WHY WE HAVE PERFORMANCE CARS!
3. the dragstrip is impossible to cheat - you can’t cheat the timeslip. You can’t pick a downhill road to run on. You can’t doctor things up. You can’t hide your car (and your tune’s) shortcomings. Its just incredibly truthful about what you, your tuner and your car are capable of.
4. people are just deathly scared of the quarter mile’s effect on their cars. Despite the fact that 1000s of Audi quarter mile passes are made every year by forum members…the scared folks only remember the 3 passes where someone broke an axle or fried a clutch. This fear/uncertainty/doubt campaign about the quarter mile is perpetuated by the tuners (and their customers) who as mentioned above HATE the quarter mile because of what it revealed about their cars. It is then fed through the rest of the forum(s) as folklore. I was on Audiworld and a moderator in the RS4 section said ‘the 1/4 mile will chew your clutch up’. I laughed at him. No…bad driving will chew your clutch up. Accelerating will not. The car is a fucking RS4. This is a great example of what I’m referring to, and its unfortunate.

So bottom line? Dont’ trust anyone who tells you ‘these cars weren’t made for the dragstrip’. If they do, they’re probably hiding something…and they’re probably a bit scared of embarassment. These cars weren’t made for the road course or the autocross either. They were made to storm the highways and give the owners a fun time on their way to work as German cement salesmen. Trying to say what they ‘aren’t’ is just plain sillly. These cars are a blast at the dragstrip.

#2

I think the top 4 reasons are:

  1. The Driver: AWD cars without launch control are a lot harder to launch, but overlooking that there are a number of people who pretend to be rockstars but couldn’t launch their car to save their life. At 60mph most cars won’t have the same power hit so they won’t have to deal with the traction issues as much. A lot of the Chevy and Ford guys know there will be traction problems and they just don’t care as they know it will be a factor, so they don’t bitch about it as often.

  2. Possible harm to the car: Because a handful of idiots, or some poorly maintained cars a number of people believe that their car will break something just because so and so had something happen.

  3. Location: It’s easy to find a highway or open road. There is also no real timing device. Who is to say the person who ran the test isn’t going downhill, or fudged the data. It’s easy enough to fudge dyno data, this is even easier.

  4. I think you said it best Saki,

It happens with every platform, put the biggest turbo/power adder/tune …etc on the car and you will have an AMAZING TOP END… but accelerate slower than an H1 Hummer.

#3

I’m pretty sure you hit it on the head with people don’t want the embarrassment when their dyno queen cars don’t produce results.

Nowadays people just want to be able to say "I have the most horsepower… That’s all good if that’s what you want, but at the end of the day, I’d rather have less power, and put down better realistic times than live my life caring about 60-130.

Driving a car everyday means spending a majority of your time closer within the 0-60 than the 60-130.

Sadly people are taking 60-130 and treating it like it means everything, when in actuality it just shows that you likely don’t have a well balanced car if you only throw those #'s around. It’s a joke. Dyno queens love the 60-130, because it takes the human portion almost entirely out of the equation.

I also think that the third party unbiased certified timing scares people and they will have to face the facts that what they spent their $ on, didn’t truly make their car what they thought it was.

#4

I can’t add much that hasn’t already been said. The only frustrating thing to me is I can’t get ANYONE to do pulls with me from a dig or even from 5/10mph roll. Everyone wants to do 40 or 60 mph interstate pulls.

Mostly b/c when lining up it’s a lot easier to find a stretch of interstate to dick around than a good road that you can hit the top of 3rd or so somewhat safely. Also, b/c as mentioned, people are too much of a pussy to learn how to really drive their car. For me, once I knew a new clutch was going in, I did everything I could to test/try certain aspects, mainly being really speeding up my shifts and launching some.

It’s frustrating though, b/c a lot of cars do better 60-100mph than our cars do, even with my blower it’s not going to be that impressive against a E39 M5 etc, but you go from a dig or low speeds and I could probably make them look silly. But they’d be SO bad at those speeds (due to driver usually, but as mentioned the acceleration between gears as well), they’d just say it wasn’t even a real race b/c of blah blah blah and that it didn’t prove anything.

#5

Plus the 1/4 mile is a fuckin larf! Legal speeding. I’ve never been but I imagine the dyno is a bit like watching a sport vs playing it.

#6

^^^great post bangoman…that sums up the dyno perfectly

Not doing pulls from a dig is tantamount to avoiding the dragstrip. Same shit. Tuning a car to do well in 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th is tough. Tuning it to make power in 4th gear alone is not nearly as hard.

If you get someone who says ‘only frmo a 40 roll’ or something, tell them OK…one from a dig, then one from a roll. The truth is that most of these cars that will do pulls are young guys with smaller displacement, forced induction cars. They aren’t awesome down low for the most part, but can fly up top. They know your displacement is a big advantage down low, so they will avoid running from 0-60 at pretty much all costs.

I’ve raced a few B5s from a dig or roll and am always surprised how well my car (B7 S4, B7 Rs4) did, routinely putting a couple of quick lengths on them. When I raced them in 3rd/4th, it was still to my advantage vs. the stage 1 or 2 guys.

When I raced the well sorted stage III guys, down low I could be close…but up top they just walked away. I had no answer.

#7

^It’s more driver skill and big power in a RWD not being able to hook up.

People closest to me that I’ve tried (or could try) to get to go from a dig have: V10 Viper (full exhaust, tune & shorter diff), E39 M5 (catback, possibly tuned), C63 (not much now, later full exhaust, tune, etc), Supra (typical mods but still fast on the roll), 335’s (JB4, DP & CB, IC, Meth, Intake), C6 ZO6 (semi-track spec with many mods etc), high hp turbo S2000’s, Fully built Evo.

So as you can see, pretty much all those cars have serious traction issues when you throw everything they’ve got from a stand still or down low. And moreso, as I mentioned, it’s driver ability as well to get off the line, make the shifts, and keep going strong. Most of them spent most their money on the car & mods and don’t want to think about having to replace a clutch etc. So they baby them to an extent, and don’t launch them b/c “it’s too hard on the car”. The only one who really drives it like he stole it is the C63 guy, and he’s coming from a 900hp+ supra that was deep into the 9’s.

We’re all friends, so it’s not about racing for money or anything like that. But they just don’t go from a dig, never been to the strip (except the one, and the closes strip is 90 min away), and obviously their cars shine when you put them in a 3rd gear pull.

#8

Alright where to start LOL

First I honestly think alot of people fear the dragstrip because there scared of possibly getting a slow time and being embarrased. IMO if you actually go to the strip and run there car idk what the time is i thinks thats still an accomplishment. dont stop there keep trying. I was there when justin NYCVR6 snapped his axle first run out. i can tell he was pissed but that sure and hell is not stopping him from achieving his goals.

I think alot of these tuners/builders are just full of excuses so they dont loose there following and customers. If business isnt flowing then no money is flowing either.

I feel since theres alot of new guys in the community they may feel AMD/EPL are doing new and amazing things when… there really not. AMD wants to claim monster FATS times well… 2+ years ago Simmply ran faster fats times on less mods!!! also simmply went and competed in the eurotuner gp. The results werent the best but atleast he did it. Torque Factorys s4 put down welll over 500whp and ran an 11.17 on RS6 hybrids and 95% full weight!!! I think alot of these people arent educated and see numbers and think WOOOW 775WHP that cars has to rip! Lets face it when you hear or see a dyno you expect that car to be as fast as the numbers and perform like the numbers. Its really just a hype fest IMO.

One thing i love is the UGR lambo guys who will do the 1/4 mile, full mile and 60-130 times. Yes obviously they might have a little more cashflow then alot of people owning S4s but they put alot of money into those cars as well. if they break they fix them and have at it again and again. They are not concerned with an axle or rear diff. they just wanna own the road.

#9

IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT BREAKING, DONT BUILD THE DAMN CAR!

when you basically double and triple the power of what the car was intended to have and built for from the factory, you are going to wear down and break parts much faster. its common sense. if someone wants to build it and not drive it, what the fuck is the point? a lot of people build a fast car for the initimadation factor and thats what they use the dyno for. i know these tial cars make more power than mine on paper but i have full confidence mine can hold its own. they use the dyno to scare us away so they wont have to drive it and get their feelings hurt. the best part is that i have a b6 s4, mine isnt supposed to keep up, i have nothing to lose. if i lose its whatever, remember, my car is SUPPOSED to lose lol

#10

Yeah, it’s really not that hard for a company to prove their mods/builds by running down the quarter mile (unless their shit doesn’t work).

JHM does it right. Develop a part, no info leaks, then spring it on the public with a video showing the 1/4 mile run and images of the car/timeslip/modification all layered with some awesome rare metal tune from the 80s-90s.

Like this one.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi-s4-jhm-11-sec-run_145939.htm

Or this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KIaksAWJb8

Or this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhDcNObZLpo

I could watch these all day lol.

#11

that’s a great point that NYCVR6 was making this last couple of weeks with the Tial boys.

They will happily write a cheque of up to $20,000 or $25,000 to these companies for a tial770+fully built motor…or $10,000-15,000 for a tial 605 + lightly built motor…will pay the shop to do all the work…but won’t go to the dragstrip because they saved $1000 by not upgrading mounts and axles lol. Yeah…that makes a ton of sense.

#12

NYCVR6, I’ve said the same shit for so long as well (not so much to local guys as it’s not the same level, but the $15-20k build on the forums). How the fuck do you justify a build like that, but a $100 axle isn’t worth the risk?!?!? I break parts and get excited b/c I get to replace them with something better and it’s a badge of honor to some degree. I’m not even close to the investment that some of those guys have, but the ONLY mounts I could upgrade right now (that I know of) are upper strut mounts for the suspension. I have every other mount on the car, and b/c of that, I can drive the shit out of the car without fear as well as reap the benefits at the same time.

#13

I love this thread. Ive said for years there os 0 point in this test for the b5 S4. At no point in time will a 700whp B5 S4 spin the tires off a roll in second gear. Sakimano was right this is why the REAL big dogs used the 60-130 tests.

Ill add to why the scam bots b5 guys like to use the 60- test.

1 most of them have shit for cooling systems and innaficent turbos that heat soak after 1 pull. So having a test that starts at 60- will make sure the IC is cooler. Most of theste guys would have a piss poor time doing a pull down low with the poor turbos and heat soak

2 BLATENTLY put. The turbos just suck down low. Anyone can put a car on a dyno and load up the dyno to help spool the turbos on a dyno. The wind resistance at 60- test is thicker and adds to the load and then helps spool the turbos

The facts are more speeds covers up for all the short commings that you would run into everyday driving. What kinda fucken moron would want a test that has nothing to do and isn’t even close to the envirement that you drive in everyday,.

#14

anyone else think that AMD is measuring their 60-130 on their own dyno where there is no wind and road resistance. they can actually adjust the resistance of the rollers too.

#15

Doubt it because they SHOULD be using a PBOX and then having the pbox file verified by a third party running the list (i.e. the 6speedonline list).

PBOX is GPS based, so you can’t really trick it on a dyno as it wouldn’t acknowledge that you’ve even moved (because you wouldn’t have)

#16

AMD is not measuring the 60-130, Customers are borrowing the vbox and doing runs on their own.

I believe the same person who verifies 6speedonline is verifying the times for AZ. Could be wrong tho.

#17

it is tweets4estate’s thread isn’t it? I have seen nothing on AZ about independant verification. Hopefully that’s not the case.

Anyway, as discussed above PBOX doesn’t work on a dyno anyway.

p.s. it’s likely a PBOX, not a VBOX that anyone at AMD uses…a PBOX is a $500 device while a VBOX runs up to $3000-5000 depending what you get with it. The dragstrip is $40 :smiley:

#18

Yes; pbox. Tweets can chime in on who verifies AZ.

#19

It’s Scott, who varifies 6speedonline.com’s 60-130 thread. Not sure what gets more legit than that. Thats like God verifying a sin, he knows his stuff.

#20

how does one verify that a particular car is what generated the 60-130 data?