After 12 years here's where the B5 S4 sits

Strictly what I’ve noticed over the course of several years I listed below. This thread wasn’t designed to bash or make one company stand out over the other but is designed to look back & reflect where the B5 S4 stands today.

After 12+ yrs the B5 S4 seems to be lacking a versatile turbo setup for a reasonable price.
Versatile meaning “turbo of quality that performs well down low, mid-range & up top without going broke”

                                          [center] [center][b][u]So far we have the usually below[/u][/b][/center][/center]

RS4 K04 setup (good low – great mid range turbo) expensive & hard to get. Than we have the hybrid setups ie larger compressor wheel No better than the factory RS4 turbo, this has prove to be a large failure for many years. The turbine wheel & housing is far too small “makes the upgraded compressor wheel useless”.

RS6 setup (OK low, great mid – good upper mid range turbo, not much top end) too much money, work & hard to get! With all the modifications needed to make them fit like (cutting, shaving, welding & relocating made these near impossible for the average consumer to take the set of RS6 turbos and make them fit) Than we had very expensive hybrid setups, proved some success but companies abandoned them quickly, the turbine wheel was never addressed properly. Once again to much work, time, talent needed to make them fit. Not practical for the cost of the full setup!

Tial 605 kit (good mid – good upper mid turbo) Very large fancy compressor wheel journal bearing turbo with a pretty fairly small turbine wheel in comparison to the compressor wheel, same mistake the hybrids listed above makes in my opinion. Very comparable to the standard RS6 with a little more peak hp gains but you have to run 32+lbs, more expensive, does bolt on but lacks the low – mid that the RS6 has but doesn’t overall outperform the standard RS6 when looking at the complete power band.

Tial 770 kit (good mid – very limited top end) this setup is really expensive, plan on running 35 - 40+lbs of boost to achieve nothing more than your standard GT kit at 26-28lbs, the priciest setups to date for the parts you get or don’t get by the time you’re done collecting all the parts. They don’t come with down pipes or manifolds. For this power band & setup one would do far better with a custom GT kit where turbo selection & custom wheels are wide & readily available. This setup isn’t justifiable with realistic gains to support the overall project cost at all.

GT kits (great mid – insane top end range turbo) not real fun driving at low rpms & speed. I would say strictly for the guy who wishes to go all out from start to finish while addressing the entire car from end to end. Down side “full kit not readily available & if you don’t go all out ie total car build then it’s pointless” When done correctly you’ll have a super car +!! Have check book ready & maybe you’re first born!!!

Single Turbo kit (Great for drag car) Pros (If you have strictly drag car changing the unit is easier, that’s it) Cons Not practical for many reason “think Honda with large turbo” the fun part where you mainly drive the car around town is now gone just like the 605, 770 turbos, having the crisp throttle response @ lower rpms like K03, K04 & RS6 turbos will never be there anymore, far more relocating work than most realize, potential engine fire is high, runner length on manifolds add length/volume that slow exhaust gases down so on paper the turbo you think is ideal is again to large to spool great, the refined feeling of the Audi is now gone, obtain overall less performance for more money & headaches than what other kits already out offer, turbo by the fire wall is the worst possible place to put anything generating a lot of heat, overall not cheaper, if so not worth the deleting, relocating, risk involved & the list goes on.

After near 1 year of testing, gathering info & from 7 yrs of personal experiences with just about every setup I have the hands down winner. Some may dissagree, think it’s bias or whatever but it’s really the hard all around facts.

Very well thought out post. I would have to agree fully. I don’t think the tial turbos are worth the money or what appears to be the extremely above and beyond it takes to just install.

The b5 guys seem to want to jump on any new idea no matter how unproven it is . It has always seemed that they hope to latch onto any new idea. They need go find something new to believe in due to so many of the past failed turbo ideas.

The goals of many are best met with a kkk turbo. The tial turbos are lore talk then walk

never been a pro turbo guy myself. Looking at the 2.7 and the 1.8 the turbo guys just think strap on something bigger and hope for the best. The ko4 series turbos have a large range going from the TT to the RS6 turbo. The large down low is what makes for a better accelerating car.

The lack of home work seems to be showing it self on the lack of performance seen from the ATP and tial turbos

Most of the guys are being talked into the flavor of the day massive turbos and peak hp dyno numbers ##. Very simple RS4 & RS6 based turbos really don’t require 10s of thousand of dollars in supporting mods to go fast to have a great street machine. So make guys think these massive turbos are the best, make the customer spend 10ss of thousand in supporting mods, exotic parts they don’t need and in the end you have nothing more than a useless car and a wealthy shop owner!

What’s being bought is a dyno sheet really from the very same shop owners pushing these products while controlling the full out come of the advertised project.

When 2.7ltr guys figure out they have not much more displacement then a large displacement 4 cylinder the better off they’ll be.

All great posts. this last sentence ^ is so true. My old tacoma back in the day was a 2.7l 4 cyl. When I first heard about these s4’s with a 2.7l v6 I just laughed, like BS that car cant be that fast…boy I was wrong.

The S4’s are great tuner cars, but the turbos size is crucial for your application, just like gearing, clutches, etc… they all play a part.

Sadly the B5 S4 has always been a slow developing platform mainly due to its owners. when i first bought my car back in 06 i would ask questions as to turbo upgrades. if i even mentioned the words “gt turbos” on a s4 i wold get me head ripped off and told that k04s are god. also alot of b5 s4 guys forget the basic principals of engines. i would bring up manifolds and told stock were just as good. WHAT?>! when hav you ever seen ANY performance car running stock manifolds?!

There arent that mainly aftermarket tuners/supporters. you can count on two hands how many people really try to develop this platform.

Also lets face it. the pricing for these cars is out of control. Im not cheap but coming on… 5500 for turbos, lines and inlets for a car some can have for 5-8 grand. Thats insane. Alot of people arent aware but doing manifolds, downpipes, and vband turbos is about the same price!!!

exactly the B5 has been taking larage steps backwards the pasat few years. the GT turbos were a joke only because the company pushing them at the time was a joke. the long since dead ASP. Or Another Stolen Product as they were better known for. Years of bad tuned and bad information have pushied the B5 back several steps. I agree 5500$ for tuebos is a lot of money when the car itself costs 4000 in many cases.

I thuink now we are seeing a strong backlash againsed the Bull shit and now we have one web site that seems to be collecting members that are open about talking about the short commings of the B5 so we can expose the best side of the B5

Lets be honsert if we don’t talk about what isnt and dosent work whats the point about talking then. There is a point that we all need to stop chearing for lack luster results with the B5. At this point the B5 game is weak but it looks to have a possible good turn with what might be these RS6 turbos.

See the ASP kit wouldnt be bad if it was A. competitively priced and B. Tuned properly. Im not a big FATS guy but simmplys car with the ASP kit tweaked had some insane FATS times with nothing really to wild on the engine side. Certainly not as many mods as these AMD cars that cant breaks 12.

well, take away the ASP tuning, fab work…and leave the turbos, and you have a potential for something great lol

in all seriousness, too many sound approaches for the B5 have been washed over because bad tuning didn’t let the products shine. RS6 turbos at VAST the last couple of years have been skipped over because of Tial propaganda. K04s are considered weak because they don’t make 500 whp like Tial 605.

It’s all a joke if the car isn’t fast, so who cares.

If JHM gets serious about the B5 again, it could be pretty cool. Otherwise, it will be a bunch of guys buying fancy kits and dynosheets with bad tuning…getting walked by guys with less flashy cars, but a system that works

Great point about the manifolds. I always get surprised by the lack of attention to the full exhaust system on B5 S4s. I mean on our NA cars, we really need the exhaust to be great from teh manifolsd (or headers) to the downpipes to the catback. On the B5 it gets glossed over, as guys cram more boost (and inefficiency) at the motor to make up for it. It’s kind of funny.

The other thing in the B5 world now is using BOOST as a metric for power.

i.e. your car only makes 22lbs…fuck you you are slower than my 27 lb car. WTF is going on over there? I actually heard one B5 guy make fun of a 450 whp B6 S4 with supercharger who ran 11s, all on straight pump gas (93 no meth no nothing) because he is ‘only’ making 1/2 bar of boost…and the B6 owner is getting a built motor (to handle 550+ whp) so the B5 guy said ‘why are you getting so excited about making 1 bar of boost?’. This was one of the smart B5 ‘leaders’ too.

That was GREAT. It really showed how much the B5 groupies know about the mechanics of engines & power. I made sure to make a post about that one to point out his stupidity.

Marketing, dyno charts, 3rd gear pulls, 60 - 130mph times have completely set the B5 back to maybe the start or worse!

Once the brainwashing started to were people believed the stock manifolds where awesome & the tial turbos was designed to run 32+ lbs on purpose to make power I knew these guys maybe lost or confused forever >:(

Will people ever learn efficient setups don’t need to be crammed with large amounts of pressure to make power while inefficient setups need to be crammed with large amounts of pressure to make power!

Anytime someone says “this kit was designed to run @ extremely large amounts of pressure on the stock manifolds to make power” should be a pretty good sign on what your buying!!

K03 turbos designed for 12-14lbs but people over spin to 20+lbs to make small gains…
K04 turbos designed for 18-22lbs but people over spin to 26+lbs to make small gains…

Bolt-on/stock manifold GT kits need to run 32-40lbs to make minimal gains while full GT kits really out perform them with 33+% less boost @ far less tuning efforts…

Seems like people really do think if your making more boost you have to be making more power lol I guess the k03 car @ 20lbs has to be faster then the k04 car @ 16lbs then!

well, guys have figured out an equation for what 1 lb of boost will add (all else same i.e. stock manifolds, downpipes). Unfortunately they then run with that and extrapolate that they’ll add XXX whp with XX lbs of boost…but pay no attention to efficiency.

Power via CFM should be a goal…not the measurement of the restriction…a.k.a. boost. A great setup running less boost, flowing more air (CFM) and making more power makes sense to me thanks to what I’ve learned from count and some of the guys here. How can people who are building their cars be so focused on boost and miss these simple steps?

Easy, they have a friend of another friend who said they was told by Tial supporters that “more boost more power” ??? There slowly learning now!

The S4 still sit’s in the same place now for 13 years! Need to add the new RS6-R turbos on this list once JHM gives us more feed back.

well at least we have a new hope with this 3.0 supercharged engine.

Same place? USP’s VR6 S4 went 9.6XX@153.xx mph… That is SMOKING fast! Sure it doesnt have the junk 2.7, but that’s probably why it’s fast. lol

I agree it sems all the changes have been from cars with different motors. I have to agree. This Tial debate seems to be just a rewashed version of all the other failed turbo Ideas in the past. There has been so many NEW turbos that its all the same in the wash. You take a 2.7 divide it in 1/2 down to a 1.3L motor and there is only going to be a small window of turbos that are going to perform in the window of 3-7000. I know people are winding the motors up past that but the cams and the valve trane isn’t up to it. Its not like we have a Evo that can spin to 10k.

Looks like the RS6 turbos have been the best match from day one and continue to be today.

Two words one answer.

Single turbo.

Hope of what…making 425 whp and then being capped before needing a $12,000 stage three kit?

Not to mention the $60,000 car.

You guys missed the memo…the best all around usable power builds are going to be on the 4.2 fsi making around 550 whp stock motor, epic sound, epic modern styling, amazing chassis… (S5 and rs4).

That is unless you want truly insane power (600…700…etc) you may need to resort to a single B5 or something…but a near 10 second daily drivable v8 car that was NOT designed before Bluetooth or navigation existed…that’s far more compelling to me. Just me maybe.