great info there^^^
that’ll explain part of the cylinder wall scoring
Audi went with forged pistons on the 4.2 FSI RS4 and S5/Q7 engines, likely in part to help alleviate some of the scoring problems they had on previous NA engines.
Interesting. I will do my best to keep track of how many of the S6’s this is effecting, and to what extent. There are very few stories of complete engine replacement being required, but many accounts of the S6 v10 consuming more oil then the average engine.
JE does make forged pistons for the R8 and Lambo 5.2 v10s, so they may work with the S6. They drop compression to 9.0, as they are designed for adding forced induction. If you already have damaged the cylinder walls though, these are obviously not going to help until you repair that first.
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Sport-Compact/Lamborghini.aspx
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Sport-Compact/VW-Audi/R8V10.aspx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1YcDnBvOT4
Ill have to ask CV if he has any more info on this. I think he mentioned that there is a way that minor scoring can be fixed, to a certain extent.
Also, I have heard that JHM is working on a resleeving program for the Audi alusil blocks. There is a sleeve kit for the Lamborghini v10s, priced at a cool $5k !!! Labor not included 
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/lamborghini-gallardo-sleeves.html
the JHM program is pretty deep, and I’d guestimate they’re over $100,000 in R&D. Maybe double that. I don’t see them trying something similar for the 10ers because it’s such a limited market.
Wow! That is quite the investment. Great for the v8 guys.
And yeah, I agree, the v10 market is practically nothing. Cars with the cast pistons would be the S6 and S8 v10, with the Lambo and Gallardo getting forged ones stock, and nicer forged rods (like the RS4). I think it will be interesting to see what happens to the v10 S6/8s. Will they just quietly fade away and be forgotten? Probably. The only thing that REALLY differentiates them, the v10, was not well executed in stock form, and has become quickly overshadowed by the more recent smaller, FI engines from Audi.
If the aftermarket (i.e. JHM in this case) can really open up the performance of these cars, while addressing some of the shortcomings, then you may have a small group of enthusiasts who keep them alive. Otherwise, they will probably just disappear into the junkyards of North America. Only JHM can save the species from extinction !!! LOL
yeah, they’re really interesting, and when I see one it’s always such a rare beast.
getting a nicer tune, opening up the cats, and putting a good sounding resonated catback on them makes it a really cool comfortable cruising car. If you can trap 110 in one, at 4350 lbs and with all that space and luxury, that’s a really cool car for the segment.
I think that 110 trap is an obtainable goal. jp2.7v6tt was nice enough to send me the following info (which I haven’t included in the S6 info dump, just because I am trying to keep performance results to official track times):
We used the performance Box vBOX , went from 105 mph (stock) to 109 with out cats and with a complete tuneup and carbon clean , its goes side by side with a 5000 miles rs4 …and over 220 km the s6 start to pull , I really think with a 3 inch exhaust and a good tune this car can go 112+
Something that I noticed in the sleeves for the Lamborghini motors was that they mentioned the v10 Lamborghini motors already had some sort of liner. You’d think that’s an important thing to have and important information to know if that’ll be something that separates the Audi and Lamborghini motors even more.
Ill try and get confirmation on that. When JE lists its pistons for the Lambo 5.2, it mentions Alusil bore. The whole purpose of Alusil is to have no sleeves, isnt it?
LAMBORGHINI GALLARDO V10 5.2L FSI 2009-2012
ASYMMETRICAL FSR FORGING Std Bore: 84.5mm (For use with STD Alusil Bore)
This document seems to confirm that the Lambo v10s have a Alusil block
Today, KS Aluminium-Technologie has the following low-
pressure die cast cylinder blocks in series production:
Audi V6, ALUSIL
®
(various versions)
Audi V8, ALUSIL
®
(various versions)
Audi V10, ALUSIL
®
BMW / Rolls Royce V12, ALUSIL
®
Lamborghini V10, ALUSIL
®
Aston Martin V8, hypoeutectic secondary alloy with
shrunk-in grey cast liner
Porsche Boxer
6
, ALUSIL
®
(various versions)
Porsche V6, ALUSIL
®
Porsche V8, ALUSIL
®
VW / Audi / Bentley W12, ALUSIL
®
the Lambo V12s have liners
http://www.carbuildindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/3-Gallardo-Engine-Assembly.jpg
this page claims to be for rebuilding the Lambo V10, pictures of the bare block
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C287880
another low quality picture
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSX0YIRlouVXYcYUvG9eNyQNUcT7XP0doXTMk7RjWqnkLWfW59o6A
What’s to be taken from this then? The company selling sleeves for the motor mentions the Lamborghini blocks have liners.
[quote]With this increased power comes increased cylinder pressure and the factory cylinder liners typically become the weak point.
[/quote]
Not sure. Everything that I see aside from that seems to indicate an alusil block without liners.
Contact the member from AZ with the bad block maybe you can get pictures or a good deal on his bad motor.
I did contact him about pics. Haven’t heard back.
Ill msg him about the engine. But, I bet that the shop just list it on car-part.com or ebay for $5k and neglect to mention the problem with it. It would only be worth getting for testing if you could get it for a thousand bucks, IMHO. We should mark the serial in case it shows up again down the road in a different car.
Who knows the real history of the car. For all we know, it is a high-mileage engine after the car had a front end collision. Or maybe a flood car. Engine replacement at 21k miles doesn’t make sense to me. I only mentioned it here so that we can track any major issues, and look for trends. So far, this seems like a one off occurrence. I saw one similar story in the UK awhile ago. Ill see if I can find it.
I have always looked at it like this.
The S6 and S8 are like the B6/7 S4 motors
and
The lambo motors are like the RS4 motors.
The same but different. The RS4 motors have better everything, it’s not that the B6/7 motors are really bad they are just not as good as the RS4
Great comparison.
I have spent some time looking into improving a local C6 S6 and there is a lot of room for improvement. In my opinion Audi made a fantastic engine and put it into a great car (both the S6 and S8) but they restricted it down really far so that it wouldn’t overshadow the current RS models of the time. Remember they had the B7 RS4 already out around the same time and then the C6 RS6 Avant came out in Europe. There was a purple D3 S8 that I worked on regularly and I loved every time he brought it in unless I had to check the power steering fluid. Here are a few things that I noticed.
Let me start with the intake.
- The intake tubing and air boxes are way too small. If you take off the top of the air boxes then you will see how badly the air filters are squeezed in there.
- They have a Soundpipe on the left/driver’s side. It probably slows down the intake air like the pipe that is on the B6 A4 3.0 V6. Look here for an explanation: http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=96.0
- There is more than enough room to run a cold air intake like what the A6 3.0T guy did on the right/passenger’s side. Hell there is enough room to fit the JHM SC down there backwards like how JHM mounted it on the B8 S5. But the driver’s side has a secondary radiator in the way just below the headlight. I was going to move that secondary radiator in front of the main radiator and AC condenser with some brass fittings and longer coolant lines to fit a true cold air intake but that project never got off the ground.
- The intake manifold is cast magnesium like the B6/7 S4s so it gets heat soaked really bad. The engine gets hot as hell so some thick intake manifold spacers are needed to make a difference.
- The intake manifold is a dual path intake manifold like the B6/7 S4s for better low end torque and higher end horsepower.
- The change over is done by the Variable Intake Manifold Runner Motor V183. That part failed a LOT on both the Q7 version 4.2L FSI V8s and the 5.2L FSI V10s. There was an updated part to solve that problem. It was a nice repair on the V10s because I could replace the motor without moving the front end into service position but it still paid for those extra steps. If you ever have to replace that part then I highly recommend buying a bunch of the little tiny C-clips that hold the motor arms to the other linkages.
Lets move to the exhaust.
- The stock catback is tiny. I think a proper 2.75" catback from where the Y-pipes that connect the exhaust manifolds all the way back would help out a lot. These engines make between 429 to 444 horsepower stock which is just above what the RS4s make. The RS4s have seen a big improvement with 2.75" exhaust so why not on the V10s. Please don’t hold it against me if the members here with more knowledge think a 3" exhaust would work better.
- Those stock cats are really hateful. I took off the stock Y-pipes that connect the two exhaust manifolds together to change out the transmission fluid and filter. While doing that repair it looked like the cats for the front three cylinders on each side would be easy to gut. The cats for the rear two cylinders looked like a PITA to gut but it might be possible with a good long angled striking prybar, a big 3" or 4" wire brush attachment for a drill, and a few starts of the engine to blow all the crap out.
- Of course proper headers would be the best solution but it would be an extremely tight fit. Either way a good exhaust should sound fantastic.
Lastly I really see a weight reduction helping out these cars.
- The wheels are heavy as lead. They also use a odd tire size on these cars that are expensive.
- Those stock brake rotors are heavy as shit. I would be willing to bet a coke that JHM could shave over 10 pounds from the front rotors each. Even the rear rotors are heavy.
- All the C6 batteries are huge but they are also in the trunk like the B7 RS4s so I wouldn’t be so worried about it.
- The stock crank pulley is a fluid filled vibration dampener. It would be interesting if JHM came out with a lightweight front crank pulley to replace the stock unit.
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Great info jbones. Always good to hear the real world perspective
Awesome writeup Jimmy!
Not many details on this one. From an S8, but the same usual suspects as the S6
V10 S8 in for some TLC, broken inlet manifold, flaps not working and heavily carboned up
http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb11171867/p4pb11171867.jpg
V10 S8 all finished, carbon cleaned, manifold stripped, modified and cleaned and a pair of high flow filters to finish.