B7 RS4 JHM Stage 1+ Killer Chiller Install

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

So as per the title this thread will cover my KC system install in my JHM Stage 1+ RS4. Reasons for doing it are/were many, curiosity, itching to do another mod etc. but essentially I felt that even though the inter-cooler that came with the JHM Stage 1+ was a great and must have addition over the the Stage 1, the car was still running hot especially in traffic conditions and in warmer climates.

Going to add the link to my Stage 1+ thread again incase anyone that haven’t seen it might be curious!
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=4364.0

Not going to do show the Stage 1 link as the Stage 1+ has it and I also haven’t yet got around to update it since Photobucket decided to screw us!

The JHM system does come with a very neat water reservoir so for the guys that want to or do go to the strip that is a huge plus because you can just fill that puppy with some ice before every run and wella! In my case, the main goal was not to build a car for the strip or track but more for the street. And hence my decision to go for something that I can switch On or Off as I wish whilst driving. My concern though was and still is how the Ac pump is going to cope with all of this but I guess time will tell.

So will get into more details of the install over the long weekend but below a pic of the KC system.

Killer Chiller

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#2

So as we all know to get any new kit installed it’s a bumper off job on the RS4, got that out of the way and then were faced with the decision of where to put everything… :-\


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So 1st price for me was to somehow get the KC unit installed on the front, that would put it close to the current Heat exchanger, AC pipes and would keep all the new hose length’s to a minimum. Also wanted an OEM look if something like that was possible. I always had it in my mind that the best place to place it would be to the opposite side of the JHM heat exchanger and ideally behind the crash bar. That way it would use wasted space and not obscure or block off any existing airflow to any of the existing RAD’s.

Sizing up the Fit

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Initial measurements sort of indicated that it might work but the only way to be sure was to get that crash bar off, made some cuts and hope for the best. Got the baby grinder out and started making some cuts into the crash bar. Many measurements and cuts later I was able to get my first mock up of where I initially envisage it to go. The fit was perfect, well almost, and the only visible evidence would be the new hoses and plumbing below the crash bar and once the bumper was back in place completely invisible to the untrained eye. As luck would have it the KC’s dimension’s fitted the spot I had in mind like a glove, it’s tight but measure twice cut once and it will fit as if it was planned that way from the factory.

Mock Up

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#3

The downside with my preferred Chiller position was that I created new problems that needed to be solved. Firstly the top oil cooler line had to be removed as well as the water pump so I had to come up with some new ideas for that but that’s another days problem. That space below the crash bar had to be freed up to accommodate the bottom section of the Chiller and all the new hoses which had to go below the crash bar. I also opted for the electric Bypass valve which allows one to exclude the Inter Cooler’s Heat Exchanger from the coolant loop so had to find a place for it and again I wanted it close to the Chiller and Heat exchanger. Removing the upper oil cooler line solved that problem for me as I found a spot on top of the oil cooler that worked great. With the placement of the Chiller and Bypass valve finalized it was time to think about securing those parts. I drew some brackets on a piece of paper and transferred that onto some foam board. Cut that out to replicate the brackets and once happy with the design and fit it was off to the machine shop to have it all laser cut. Collected it a few days later and the design allowed me to mock them up in place to test fit before welding and powder coating.

Bypass Valve Position

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Bypass Valve Bracket Mock-up

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Bypass Valve Test Fit

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Chiller Bracket Parts

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Chiller Bracket Mock-up

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Chiller Bracket Fit

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Chiller On Car Test Fit

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Bypass & KC Final Positions

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With that sorted it was off for welding and powder coating. ;D
Collected a few days later, drilled the mounting holes test fit and final assembly. For the Chiller itself I opted to use Stainless Steel Banding for securing to the bracket, super strong and make attachment a breeze. Also easy to remove and reattached if required.

Completed KC Bracket

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Completed Bypass Bracket

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Strapped KC Unit

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Bypass Valve In Bracket

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With that out of the way I could finally fit the above parts to the car for a final time and move on to complete the crash bar clearance, find an alternate locations for the water pump and Fan control unit/sensor and reroute the oil cooler line. The Water Pump was fitted as before to the crash bar just in a different position and angle. The oil cooler line required a Hose End fitting swap and even though the pictures will show it all attached with straps that wasn’t the final position. I don’t have any pic’s but in short I had to adjust the angle slightly which moved the bottom of the hose more forward as I had clearance issues when trying to fit the bumper. Again, nothing serious but the pic will show the overall idea and position. The Fan control unit required another bracket as there just wasn’t any space for the original to fit. I ended up cutting off the bottom section of the original and welded at a different angle to give me a flat mounting bracket and surface that could attached to the top of the crash bar. I simple drill & tap through the top of the bar took care of that problem.

Oil Cooler Line

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Water Pump

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Fan Control Unit Bracket

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Completed Crash Bar

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Will update with some more details later tonight or tomorrow, apologies in advance if there is too much detail and I hope the pic’s are sort of ok, didn’t bother to optimize and also not sure if one can so just uploaded and it is what it is. :slight_smile:

#4

Wow, unbelievably amazing work. I’ve been doing some planning for a chiller install myself, but was actually leaning towards a custom setup versus buying the killer chiller kit to hopefully save some space.

#5

With most of the placement, fitment and clearance issues taken care off and the Chiller and Bypass valve mounted on their respective brackets I could install the brackets on the car and get on with the plumbing of the coolant and AC hoses.

One other problem which I haven’t figured out at this stage was the placement of the Drag Valve. Didn’t really need it but I wanted the option to exclude the cabin from the AC loop especially in the cooler months when high in cabin temps are not a problem. Considering the limited space there really was just one place to place it and given its close proximity to the motor I wasn’t sure whether heat was going to be a problem and cause issues with the plastic housing. Touch wood, it seems that the heat is not such a big issue and to date its been working flawlessly else I really would be in trouble. Keep in mind that with the RHD blower install I relocated my dryer and low side pressure hose to the right handside of the car when facing from the front so I couldn’t tap into the hose under the fender or below the headlight as per OEM placement.

Ok, lets see what that installed and hooked up Drag Valve and Chiller unit looks like. You will also noticed that I have already T,ed into the High Side AC line to connect the feeder hose to the Chiller. This also show that all hoses are super short and tight.

Chiller and Drag Valved installed and plumbed

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Crash Bar Fitted, Water Pump and all Coolant and AC hoses connected

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The Drag valve pic isn’t very clear but unfortunately its the only one I have available right now. Will get some clearer ones on the weekend and update the thread. But if it will help its installed under the Coolant resorvoir between the ABS unit and engine.

Drag Valve Placement

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#6

Thank you! If you have access or knowledge on how to build a chiller unit then absolutely it can be done. But the size of the KC unit is actually already very compact and a perfect fit for our cars. Nor sure that anything smaller is necessary but surely anything bigger is going to be difficult to get a clean fit. I looked at the Australian option which on paper seems like a better system but in the end I am glad/relieved I didn’t go down that route, its almost twice the price of the KC system and likewise in size. I wouldn’t have been able to fit that in the limited space available on the RS4.

#7

So the above really take care and show just about the complete install of the Killer Chiller system. I have a ton of photos so if there are any questions let me know. Things I haven’t touch on yet is the obvious question, does it work?? The short answer for now is Yes, I will get into more specifics and details later.

With regards to the KC unit. The Bypass Valve shipped to me from Kincaid is absolute junk. Its a cheap Chinese unit and the price you pay for that unit is ridiculous. Mine turned out to be junk and wouldn’t operate properly and I just tossed it in the rubbish bin. I did send Joe at Kincaid a note but as yet no response. The supplied unit would actuate when switched on and would return to original position by means of a charged capacitor when switched off. In the end I bought a similar unit locally with some warranty repairs behind it. Still a cheap Chinese unit but it seems to do the job just fine. I also opted for a unit where both directions of the 3-way ball valve were controlled by means of electric motor similar to the 2-way Drag Valve.

The rest of the system and parts are of good quality.

With the major fab work out of the way and the system ready to go it was a matter of getting coolant into the reservoir, charge the AC system and hit the road. But, the thought of driving the car without knowing what is really happening was not an option so I decided to look at the option to install some sensors that could give me real-time measurement at anytime whilst in the car. I wanted a Plug & Play solution and the one thing I didn’t want was an external gauge sitting on the dash or in the vent of which there were quite a few options available.

But, more about that tomorrow, now it’s bedtime in my part of the world!

#8

So you actually kind of have the same idea as me by putting it in the crash bar. I haven’t gotten a chance to take measurements or do much research yet, but I think I found some heat exchangers that would actually fit without hacking it apart, with the exception of adding holes for the lines.

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18.3”x2.9”x2”

The other idea would to just run the AC refrigerant through a copper coil inside of the water reservoir. Something kind of like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180405/32676f55415c3e52370f84f28f072bca.jpg

Then there’s always a chance I’ll just grab the KC kit.

#9

Yes, crash bar was the logical place but it’s really tight, will have to be a very compact unit to be able to fit completely on the inside. If you eliminate the blower’s Heat Exchanger then you will have much more space to work with. Something I didn’t want to do. I think it’s beneficial to keep it for the really cold days when you don’t have to run the AC as well as those times that you might have a problem with the AC. Would really suck to be in a situation where the AC don’t work and you got rid of the blower’s heat exchanger.

#10

Just wanted to say wow and I think we all apprechate all your hard work and great attention to detail. Its interesting to see how this comes together.

As for the crash bar. I think you actually might have a bit more room on the RS4 than we have on the B6 S4. So I would like to see this work for the b6 S4 but I just don’t think there is enough room even if you cut into the bar.

Still I would like to see firsrt hand. Sounds like a lot of us are on the SC bandwagon and its a good wagon to be on. I’ll have to take a look in the next few months when I install my kit.

#11

Thanks, and hopefully it’s worth all the effort at the end of the day but as mentioned earlier, initial results are positve.

[quote]As for the crash bar. I think you actually might have a bit more room on the RS4 than we have on the B6 S4. So I would like to see this work for the b6 S4 but I just don’t think there is enough room even if you cut into the bar.
[/quote]
Yes, I have no clue other than what Jimmy said about his install which indicated that the RS4 had a bit more space in the front to work with.

[quote]Still I would like to see firsrt hand. Sounds like a lot of us are on the SC bandwagon and its a good wagon to be on. I’ll have to take a look in the next few months when I install my kit.
[/quote]
Yes, love the blower, it’s taken some hard work and effort to get it all installed but looking back I won’t change anything, apart form a few small mistakes here and there but overall no regrets. It’s a game changer there is no otherway to put it.

I get so many compliments back home from the RS4 community once they grasp the extend of the installation. It’s staggering how many of them are totally bemused when I open the hood and they see no top mounted blower, the look on their faces are quite comical ;D ;D ;D To them a blower on the RS4 spells APR ???

Looking forward to get your feedback once you start your install.

#12

Ok, so let me expand on my statement from lastnight that I wanted to be able to have some realtime measurements whilst driving.

Something that bugged me even before I started the chiller install was the fact that I had the blower fitted and other than VCDS and the normal in dash ambient and oil temp displays, had no clue of actual intake temps post blower, boost pressures etc. The best way to describe it is that I felt a bit like driving in the dark, I got the performance I wanted but I was lacking the monitoring bit.

That got me thinking and when I started the Chiller install I figured now was a good time to see whats available. The must haves included the following: Realtime Boost display, AIT’s post intercooler, Coolant temps both before and after the intercooler, so basically reservoir coolant temp and coolant temp after the Chiller and/or Heat exchanger before the intercooler.

Fist step was to source a product that could provide all of that and the one that gave me everything I wanted and more than I ever could have ever asked for was the vFIZ system from Qmatis in Poland. It’s a plug and play system, fully customizable and gave me the option to hook up some external sensors. All the information gets displayed on the existing DIS so no need for external gauges, pods etc. exactly what I was looking for. The system is a whole subject on its own and some of you might know it so I will just cover what is applicable to my chiller install.

For the external sensors I ordered 2 x Thermocouple Type-K’s and 1 x PT100 sensors. One Type-K for measuring AIT’s post intercooler, the 2nd one for measuring the coolant temp’s between the chiller/heat exchanger and intercooler and the PT100 for measuring the reservoir coolant temp’s. All were ordered with a 1/8 NPT thread.

Sensors (Thermocouple on the left and PT100 on the right)

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The reservoir already came from JHM with a pre-tapped 1/8 NPT port which houses a small brass cocktap, I guess its to drain the water should you want to do so but I never saw the need for that. Now that hole could be put to good use as I removed the brass tap and use that to house the PT100 sensor.

Reservoir Sensor Fitted

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In hindsight, the sensor in the line between the Chiller/heat Exchanger and the Intercooler I probably didn’t really needed but I made the effort to put it in place and its there so no harm done. Had a real hardtime to find a suitable sensor adaptor they were all to big so in the end had one locally made up by my machine shop which I drilled and tapped to accommodate the 2nd 1/8 threaded NPT Thermocouple sensor.

In-line Sensor Adaptor with Sensor fitted

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The sensor for measuring AITs after the intercooler has a bit of a long story to it. In short it’s working but I need to relocate it. The reading is both correct and wrong ??? Lol, that does sound confusing, let me try to explain.

I decided to installed in the actual intake manifold so I drilled and tapped a 1/8 NPT thread in the manifold :’( :’( :’( and installed the sensor. Once the car was up and running the reading from the sensor just didn’t make sense. At first I thought it was either a vFiz firmware or a malfunctioning sensor problem. Further testing yielded the same results but they were off, and that still need to be confirmed . With the Chiller engaged the intake temps read way higher than the reservoir coolant temps and my expectation was that it would be close if not lower. At least its reading much lower than the OEM AIT which sits before the blower which is expected but I am convinced it should be much lower.

My explanation for the problem, which I will put to the test over the next few weeks and report back is as follows. When I looked for a suitable spot to fit the sensor I didn’t wanted anythin showing and therefor anywhere at the top or front was not an option. I opted to mount it just after the throttle body which is completely hidden.

Ok, I am no expert but in layman terms, considering that the Thermocouple junction measure liquid or air flow across the exposed tip, I might have made a simple judgement error in the placement of the sensor in relation to the throttle body. Hopefully the pic will show it clearly but I placed it way to close to the throttle body and as a result the air flow gets diverted around the exposed junction and not across it. So it basically sits in a vacuum which could explain the higher as expected readings.

As said, I don’t have any concrete proof and still need to put that theory to the test and will do so by relocating the sensor to the silicone hose before the throttle body and use the existing hole for my Boost nipple.

Intake temp Sensor

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And as can be seen from the pic it was just pure luck that the placement of the sensor was placed in-line with the pivot point of the throttle valve itself as to not cause any interference. :o

#13

So let me just show what I meant with the vFIZ system providing me with what I was looking for. Also keep in mind that the pics shown below was in the initial stages of testing and some of the values are completely wrong. The developer had to make some changes to his firmware to customize the external sensor names for me and we also identified incorrect polarity etc. on the device itself which skewed some of the readings. In the interim he did found a way around by making some changes to the firmware and reversing the wires on the external contacts to allow me to use and test the setup whilst getting a updated box ready for me which will ship out to me tomorrow.

But the layout and setup as seen is not going to change, that is firm as I requested but the nice thing about the whole setup is I can request name changes should I so wish.

I will show two separate runs with 2-3 pic’s each just to show the DIS and the readings of the sensors. As mentioned I am still testing so readings should be completely differrent a few weeks from now. Also keep in mind that some pics might display readings with the heat exchanger in the loop, I was playing around with the bypass valve whilst driving to ensure all is working as intended.

Explanation of the short display names so that it make sense.
KCT - In-line sensor reading of coolant between the Chiller and Intercooler.
RVCT - Sensor reading of reservoir coolant
IMAT - Intake manifold sensor reading
IAT - That is the OEM intake reading from the MAF before the blower, so that underhood intake temps
CJT - Ignore

KCT readings, something is wrong, doesn’t make sense so still looking into it.
RVCT readings, correct.
IMAT readings, as explained earlier, incorrect placement, will relocate soon
AIT readings., correct

Run 1

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Run 2

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#14

Some additional information on the Bypass and Drag Valves and how I opted to control them. Pretty obvious from the initial pic’s of the kit and also thereafter that I opted for the electric options. They Bypass valve is available in a manual option as well but that require you to fit the valve somewhere convenient so that you can reach down and switch the valve manually. Not an option I was keen to do but given the location of my valve absolutely not possible.

Kincaid does provide you with 2 x button switches but I opted to keep the look and feel OEM and had two switches made up to match the look of the other switches. They were hooked up to two small latching relays to make sure I don’t run into any electrical issues down the line. The relays are driven by two fuse taps from the main fuse box which only draw power when the car is switched on so no change of malfunctioning switches draining the battery or starting an electricall fire.

I have limited pic’s about the whole setup and the wiring but I will get some more and update when I relocate the intake manifold sensor. I manage to snap two pics of the switches whilst installing.

Drag & Bypass Valve Switches

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#15

There are no words for how awesome and exciting this is. Your a great ambassador for the platform. I have mentioned a few times I was lucky enough to work and drive a stage 2 JHM supercharged car they are amazing. Add in what you have done and its an entire new level of awesome.

Incredible work.

#16

Thank you, much appreciated!!

#17

Just some cool pic’s from the underhood fittings, proof that the chiller is actually doing its thing, considering that these pics were taken in our summer they should get down to some ice flakes/drop’s come winter.

Coolant Fittings

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#18

Just another interesting comparison I did and I am not putting it out there as fact. This is purely for my testing and data and I am just sharing it here out of interest.

I did a dyno run last year middle of winter on a real hart breaker dyno and went back last week with chiller to compare. And for the sake of sanity and to not skew the proven whp figures we know these Stage 1+ cars constantly produce, I won’t quote actual numbers but just the interesting bits that are applicable to this thread.

WHP loss between Run 1 & 2
Winter Run(102 Octane) - 6whp.
L/week Run(95/Pump Gas) - 2.7whp.

WHP Difference between Winter run(102 Octane) and last week(95/Pump Gas)
Run 1 - 15whp increase over Winter run
Run 2 - 18whp increase over Winter run

For what it’s worth last weeks run was done with the AC running as well.

#19

Ok, so with all being said and done, what is my opinion on the Chiller and what still need to be address.

Overall I am satisfied with the results and about 98% of the product. The unit itself is absolutely sized spot on for my requirements considering the space constraints and the JHM Stage 1+ Supercharger setup. The electric 3 Way Bypass Valve is junk and overpriced. Kincaid should look at that and replace with a different unit. Then there is also the question on the Drag Valve, do we need 1 or 2? See comments lower down. Of more importance is the question whether the product delivers as intended and advertised? I have to say yes, and I am making my assessment and judgement based purely on my needs and car with its current mod list. You need to understand what you are buying and I believe in this respect Kincaid has outlined the product quite well.

If you are looking for an out and out performance mod then this is not for you. Go spend your money somewhere else. What this will do on a JHM Supercharged Stage 1+ RS4, is lowering intake temps significantly. It’s good for the motor and that’s all I need to know. However, I also know from logging that the tune does pull a fair amount of timing and with good intention and safety in mind. I am not going to get into those details because firstly, I am not educated enough to do so and secondly this is not what the thread is about. But here is where this mod will give back power, please note, give back not add! It will allow the tune to give back some of that timing which will result in more power and I believe the dyno test confirmed that theory. But that’s a bonus, the motor just loves that cold air and I can physically feel the difference it makes whilst driving.

As is the system runs about 95% as intended, what’s missing to complete the picture is a 2nd two way Drag Valve that needs to be installed in the High Side/Liquid line. Jimmy experienced and described a similar problem in his Chiller feedback and I ran into the same problem. The single Drag Valve on the low side line doesn’t work on these cars. Bypassing the cabin also shuts off the AC and until I get the additional valve shipped to me from Kincaid the Drag option is currently not being used. Once installed that should bring down the temps even further similar to what Jimmy experienced. That begs the question of do we really need the Drag valve on the low side line? I don’t know and given the trouble I had to get it installed there is no chance in hell of me removing that now to test, perhaps at a later stage. Then there are all sorts of additional shielding and wrapping one can add to the hoses, intercooler and reservoir to extract extra cooling, but I am not going to go to that length. As is, it meet my needs and expectations and is more than enough for my use which is mainly on the street.

Thanks to everyone that followed/read the thread and once I have addressed the outstanding issues or have more useful information I will update the thread accordingly.

#20

Just so I can better unerstnad what you posted. In the winter there was a small drop in power on back to back runs before the KC unit. This time with the KC unit there was a small drop on power on the back to back runs but its was about 1/2 of what it was before.

BUT with less octane on hotter temps the KC unit allowed the car to make more overall hp by almost 20whp.

Was this 20whp and no TQ gain… With the added hp was it all over the rpm range…

To summarize your last post. The KC unit isn’t a bit hp making add on. Its is an add on to keep the car out of heatsoak longer than before without it… Would you say that’s accurate.