B8.5 2013 APR Stg 2/APR TCU Passes at Milan

B8 S4
#1

Had a great time meeting up with a group of B8’s, a B6 along with a monster RS7 ;D

This was really the first time I legitimately ran my car with the TCU tune. I did make a pass back in June at Milan, but the track was a Charley Foxtrot and only got one pass after 2 hours of sitting around. Previous best was 12.45@110

New mods I was running were
Factory short shifting DSG => APR TCU with LC at 4k
Nuespeed Exhaust => Milltek Resonated
Factory cooling => AMS CPS (thanks again Glenn for hooking up the deal :smiley: )
Stock Cats => JHM Test Pipes
1.5 gallons e85/8 gallons 93

Mod summary: APR Stg 2 3.1 93 file (1.5 gallons e85/8 gallons 93) - TCU tune with LC @4k - AMS CPS - Milltek Resonated Catback - JHM Test Pipes (with CV welds ;)) - Stoptech BBK w/ LW Front Rotors - JHM LW Rear Rotors - Roc Euro Intake - 19" forgestar flow formed wheels at 22 lbs (LWish) - spare removed

Best trap 12.297@116.18, best ET/60 12.252@114.47 1.89 60’

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/635/21815732044_cccb219f6b_o.jpg

link to high res image https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/635/21815732044_cccb219f6b_o.jpg
Car 130 is mrmomo, who ran next to me for the majority of my passes…you can see he was killing it. I’ll let him chime in to discuss his times, which were great!

I logged 4 of the passes. Feel free to PM me and I’ll send you logs. I’m not posting them because some morons have posted graphs from my previous logs totally out of context without asking me.

General Comments

  1. Most importantly, my timing pull is down significantly. I logged all 6 knock sensors, and was seeing on average about 2 deg of pull and a max of 4. This compares to a regular value of 8 degrees before. I highly doubt this is due to the 1.5 gallon of e85, but anything is possible. My theory before was that the timing pull was due to false knock from my exhaust. I have the exhaust off and a new one on, and the timing pull wasn’t there. Not sure if that’s conclusive enough but I’m pretty convinced. The new exhaust is a lot quieter and I feel no vibration at the pedal.

  2. I think the TCU tune was helping me in the beginning and hurting me towards the end. It felt like the trans was slowing down on the 2-3 shift as the night went on. Not sure if this is due to trans temperatures climbing? The fact that my et’s were steadily going down is not a good sign. I tried one pass without LC and it shifted the trans at 5.5k RPM each time. Could have been due to the trans oil heating up? I drive with manual mode 100% of the time (and auto upshift disabled), so this configuration would never affect me on the street.

  3. My launching sucked. I’ve seen 60’ times in the 1.7x before, last night, 1.89 was my best. I should have spent some time figuring out how to use the other LC points. Would have been a good idea to use 3k instead of 4k. I forgot a tire gauge and I didn’t do a good job adjusting the tires. This probably would have helped. But we were getting a lot of passes, so I didn’t stop to make adjustments like I should have.

  4. I might try to go again one more time to see if I can sort the launch out. I’m sure the trap would probably decrease (was really flying once my launch hooked) but it would be nice to see the car into 11’s on pump.

Happy to see that the car performs like I was hoping it could. I’m more than happy to be in the upper echelon of pump gas times. Modding the car to me is a great way to learn about cars (which I am relatively ignorant to) and enjoy various aspects of performance improvements. Once APR releases program switching I’ll try to get a race gas run just so I can tick that box. Anyways, had a great time meeting up with everyone.

#2

First of all those are really nice times.

Are you referring to bhvrdr and myself ? That APR is simply just a overtimed a bit for regular 93 is a pretty good context that is being continually verified.

Except an E85 mix isn’t pump gas. And because APR 93 is overtimed you got a partial race program.

#3

Mike, As I told you very happy for you given the issues you’ve had… Those are very good pump times. I bet the E85 helped some…

Wish you had some gopros to see the shifting… These trannys are so different car to car and it seems tune to tune. I’m convinced LC is not the way to go but you already knew that. lol I’d see if APR would remove it and leave AMAX shifting… I don’t think I’ve ever had heat issues but since I haven’t monitored that’s a guess.

For sure go a few more times man… You know Jeff will be there… lol

Sounds like an awesome time and meet up also, wish I could have been there…

#4

Really? Hadn’t realized that was the perception out there… I’ve seen way more race gas logs but the pump ones I saw seemed to show GIAC making more timing… Also, curious when you say “overtimed” you mean to aggressive and potentially dangerous? You ever see the old revo logs? lol

#5

You’re funny - he’s running less than 10% ethanol (consider E85 is usually more like e70-75). That’s Sunoco pump 94 up here. What’s not pump about it?

Never thought APR 93 was too ignition-advanced…what are you basing this on?

#6

Of course I’m talking about you. For those who never saw this thread http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/658285-13-1-second-APR-Stage-2-w-DSG-tune?p=10870186&viewfull=1#post10870186, Mike@CW took my log from here and started posting it in the context that APR stg 2 93 is too aggressive, even with a CPS. Because he didn’t consult me or even care about my opinion, even though they are logs from my car, he didn’t realize that THE SAME FUCKING TIMING PULL was taking place with MS109. Hmm, when I confronted him, he acted like an arrogant prick and you acted even worse, saying that my info couldn’t be believed. LOL. Anyways, I couldn’t care less about your opinions.

If you want to go on about how APR stg 2 93 is “overtimed”, then post the logs from your car with apr stg 2 93 and we’ll discuss it. Otherwise, fuck off and go post about your pocket phone dyno app and holes in the air box. I’m seriously dumbfounded that people start on a crusade pertaining to a car that isn’t theirs with logs that aren’t theirs.

This community is about helping each other and solving problems, if someone’s car has a problem, and they share data to seek help from knowledgeable people in the community. THAT is what it’s about. Someone who knows their shit like Ron or CV or Jran or Jeff, they help and provide critical thinking…cunts like yourself who take it and run with some agenda on cars THAT ARE NOT EVEN THEIRS with TUNES THAT THEY DON’T EVEN HAVE lol…hilarious stuff.

IDGAF whether you think my car “didn’t run on pump gas”…lol…I logged it driving on the street and the amount of timing pull was EXACTLY the same as the passes yesterday. But that doesn’t fit your narrative. So keep up with your AZ circle jerk “omg thanks for sharing data”, but you don’t need to worry about my car anymore :wink:

#7

Hi primetime, several timing logs with the latest B8.5 APR 93 revision (not sure this applies to B8) have been posted on AZ (am I allowed to link here?) and all showed significant 6-9+ degree correction, though the actual timing after correction looks about right for 93. Further logging confirms the APR timing maps just attempt to advance high (mid-high 20s) and will get there if you add enough octane. Just today someone posted a log showing 27-28 degrees actual timing after mixing in E85.

I don’t see a safety issue since it seems to effectively correct down for everyone else on ‘regular’ 93. When this was first coming to light, bhvrdr and/or myself used drob23’s log as an example in a discussion to help get to the bottom of it (which he got pissed of about - and looks like I pissed him off further above). So far APR’s response to this is blaming it on gas and not all 93 pumps are created equal, etc. Statistically I disagree with 5 out of 5 random owners posting a log on APR 93 with the heavy correction, and theoretically it is obvious because tuned S4s on real 93 simply can’t run that kind of timing. Personally? I have the APR 93 B8.5 program and love it, because I mix E85 on a regular basis and thus get half a race program :slight_smile:

#8

So I guess all the other guys on AZ who are posting great apr stg 2 times are also dealing with “massive timing pull” because their tune is “overtimed”. Or they are secretly pouring race gas into their tanks. No. The only people who post their logs for you guys to chew through are the ones with problems. Hey guess what, problems can be due to other factors?!?!

I’m the last one to say APR is absolved from blame on other matters (especially other FI platforms or Stg 3), but when it comes to writing a 93 tune for the stg 2 s4, they have shown plenty of times that cars can go fast. As evidenced by the 1/4 board. If you have massive timing pull, then you don’t go 11.8x@114.x like oneragingbunny http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/400241-Official-1-4th-Quarter-Mile-Drag-Strip-Times?p=11039964&viewfull=1#post11039964

#9

From the numbers you post, if stage II, I will bet you a pepsi (Coke bets are taken lol) that these guys are running 100 tune. on the wrong gas.

Are you sure about mid-20s timing advance?

#10

Absolutely - I see it myself on APR 93. I can only rev to 6300 rpm so get cutoff before it hits high 20s, but someone on AZ just saw that today.

I never said APR wasn’t making great power. The ECU corrects the timing down to the knock curve (where max power is to be had) like other tunes. It so happens the APR maps ride higher above the knock curve so it requires more correction, but the net result in theory is the same as long as limits aren’t reached. And APR has said too much correction may result in some overshoot (it corrects farther below the knock curve than it needs to) which might give up some minimal power.

There seems to be confusion with timing pull - there is a recent thread on AZ that helps shed some light, including some before and after logs showing how the actual timing and cylinder corrections can tell you exactly what timing the tune is attempting to run for the conditions. Of course with the morons in there you may not be interested.

#11

Stage II? you cut my quote.

Obviously if you’re running 11-12 psig on stage I then mid 20s advance isn’t a big deal.

#12

None of these guys are stg 2.

I’ve seen all your discussions about vcds logging fields where you made assertions of “facts”, not to mention the speculation and arm chair engineering about how “open-loop” and “closed-loop” fueling works. And I haven’t even bothered getting involved because everything appears to be trivializing and hand waving.

#13

Lol. Makes sense.

#14

OK bringing this thread back on topic. Next time I go I’ll definitely throw a go pro on the sun roof to get an idea of this shifting. One thing I will say is that the car kind of “rocks” back and forth slowly during the shifting. Whereas normal DSG shifting near red line feels super quick and you get that quick push into your seat feeling.

#15

Sorry missed that - “mid 20s” can be a wide range but call it 27-28 degrees at redline. I realize Stage 2 runs less timing than Stage 1, but the main point is the heavy knock correction in either, which reflects how far off the timing map is from what your fuel octane can actually support. Add octane and the correction goes down and the actual timing goes up proportionately.

I’ve logged this effect myself but the most conclusive example is recently someone on AZ logged a B8.5 APR 93 program with the 6-8 degree correction we saw in others and actual timing (red line) typical of 93 octane (because that is the knock threshold). People look at excessive correction thinking something is wrong with the car but that is not always the case. The grey line I had him calculate and draw is APR’s actual 93 timing map and why it is correcting so far to the red line.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/904638TimingTargetAZT.jpg

If I’m right when he gets his octane high enough, his red line will move right up to that grey line. The next day he added E85 and that’s exactly what it did (with virtually no correction).

#16

You are effectively…missing the point.

Without the load shown (either mass flow or intake manifold pressure in hPa), the above graph of timing advance means basically nothing. If you like, plot your stock tune and see how the timing can get into the 30s.

A timing map is not 2D. Load is probably more important than RPM for the timing advance curve.

#17

What does overtimed mean?

Don’t make it a basic answer because I know what you’re driving at. However I would like to know what makes it ‘overtimed’.

And what are your qualifications?

#18

Oh and great work drob. Nice meeting you and the other guys. You guys were all flying and all good guys to boot.

I have footage of a bunch of runs. If you want any posted just let me know. If not I won’t.

#19

Yes I know that load is a factor and his calculated MAF tracked nearly identically between runs. Have you logged your B8 S4’s tune much? I’ve found on the same tune / same car / in even remotely similar conditions, variances in load have little impact on actual timing. Nowhere near 6-9 degrees. I was actually surprised that my APR 93’s timing curve with no correction (at a different elevation and different load and higher IAT) tracked within ~1 degree of this person’s all across the range. RPM is a MUCH bigger factor (for obvious reasons if you understand timing) as timing can easily swing 15+ degrees simply due to what RPM you are at.

It simply means the tune’s timing map (based on the current IAT/boost/load/etc conditions.) has values significantly higher than the fuel octane can support. This causes drivers to see consistent knock correction down to an actual timing value that their fuel can support. I suppose you could argue most good tunes ‘overtime’ to a small degree because it allows the car to find the knock threshold and ride just below it for max power. I’ve been studying/logging/tuning cars for over 2 decades (including past Audis) but I think if one takes the time to understand electronic engine control and look at the data being collected you don’t need to trust my qualifications.

#20

Thanks it was likewise fun to meet you and the other guys from Toronto. Feel free to post whatever you want. I have to apologize for dropping the ball and not giving Ron the heads up. That would have been quite the AR get together.