All this obsession with timing is making my head hurt. Can you please go run your car at the drag strip and post results. No cell phone 1/4 mile apps or p3 gauges. Then post your logs to corroborate the performance. Then go grab the race file and do the same test and post your acceleration results. Then compare and make actual informed conclusions. Get it? The scientific method.
Trying to create “estimated timing curves” by doing some weird inverse math on vcds signals that you don’t even have definitions for is just grasping at straws. It seemed people used to actually run tunes, get together and compare/contrast.
Jspazz - You were out of the loop for a while when pretty much all the knowledgeable b8 guys left audizine (saki would argue this happened way before that lol). During that time, apr and giac had trouble getting a 2014 b8.5 to go fast, and this cw sensor spoof device came to market which modified the map sensor voltage to under report boost. Pretty much all ecu tuning knowledge within the az community was reduced to bypass angle, timing pull, gas and elevation. So now you are seeing the product, which is a bunch of arguments about gas and “overtiming”.
I honestly have no idea what he’s talking about. Can’t say I’ve seen too many people not willing to spend $500 for the pulley so I haven’t seen too many stage I guys or their logs except REVO. But why not just drop down to a 91 tune to knock a couple of degrees of advance off, and test it t the strip with a log.
Wow the ‘c’ word - do you always resort to childish name calling just for disagreeing with someone? Did you just graduate from 6th grade? You don’t see other adults acting that way here - grow up.
[quote=“drob23,post:14,topic:8016”]
Yeah, for sure some gopro vids would be good to see… That’s interesting as my car keeps the momentum and the shifts in AMAX are almost seemless when they work correctly… The only time I feel significant weight transfer is on the launch… I know many will disagree but this car is really setup well for drag racing from many standpoints…
One point I will make is you have been getting fantastic launches since day 1 with the primetime launch method. I never really got better than 1.78 ish after 2 trips to the drag strip with stock TCU software.
I ran the APR TCU tune days after I got it back in June, and I believe ran something like 12.55@109 but the 60’ was 1.71. So before switching to a new TCU file/revision, I’ll try and see if I can use the LC at a lower point, which should be 3k. I’m hoping that with pressures down and changing the launch from 4k to 3k, I can see a better launch than 1.9x. If I had been able to put down the 1.7 60’ that the other guys were consistently doing at Milan, 11 sec et might have been possible.
I ran george’s car for 2 passes. First time ever trying to launch a B8 S4. He had a tune, 2 pulleys, and intake and some lw wheels in stock size.
It’s a 2010 and was trapping about 113-114 on a pretty dialed back (for JHM) pump gas tune for perspective.
60’ times were 1.73 both times using the primetime method. I say that tongue in cheek…I have no idea what primetime method is. I just held the car with the brake with my left foot…then went 100% throttle in one swift motion and let go of the brakes. Little delay, then whammo.
drob was around 1.9 a few times…that’s not right. Something was definitely not happy. Not sure if regular method would have been better or not but the DSG is sort of magical if I can get a 1.73 for the first time I’ve ever launched one that way.
Very cool to see Georges car, and exciting with JHM entering the foray. Those passes were awesome for the first time out. I’m sure we’ll all beit from legitimate competition, especially with the stg 2+ fresh off the shelf. Were 3-4 of the B8’s there running both pulleys? Madman4u also?
Yea, the DSG is fantastic and the stomp method works well. The TCU tune I have had the launch RPM set to 4k. That was way too high for those conditions. I got a 1.71 60’ with the 4k launch back in June when I first got the TCU tune. The pass was terrible so I didn’t bother posting it (something like 12.6@108).
The problem with the APR TCU tune is that when I did one pass without using LC and leaving the transmission in sport mode, it shifted at 5.5k RPM. Not sure why that happened. I think that’s when I put down a monster 97 mph pass haha.
Anyways, I’ll take the blame for not making the proper adjustments to getting the car performing at it’s best. It’s good to have a reason to go back. But honestly, I’m just glad my car is running even remotely well. After the shit passes in the past, and being stuck on jackstands for a month, that was a good feeling.
I don’t know how my screen name got thrown in here…? First let’s get things clear if anyone’s implying that I’ve posted anywhere else other than here on AR they’re dead wrong. Second, as for what’s going on with car Saki pretty much put it together with “mph suffering be ashes cars correcting and ET being on point due to this same factors”. Third I’m working on finding time to try what you “drop” and Primetime suggested with adding the higher octane fuel and going from there… Yes maybe it is something else that’s causing this but please don’t throw my name around without at least asking if I posted elsewhere or not… Thanks and I hope that I can add something more constructive to the dilemma we’re having. Just for the record cars run I g like a beast just needs some fine tuning to get things where they should be. APR did a great job with the tune and tcu tune cars shifting AMAX even without the use of LC… I’ll end it here and get some info out as soon as I get. Thanks for taking the time to read this… Cheers
Oh, My apologies Drop I haven’t been on the forums for awhile… And as for Mike he should ask before throwing people’s logs/info on different forums. I’m truly sorry man just didn’t realize what happened so I jumped the gun. He’s well I’m trying to get use up the gas in the car so I can add a little firewater to it hehe… And we’ll log her again… Cheers and please leave your lost as is…
HERE are my some of my old logs…on the first one or second…or both actually, I had added a few gallons of 100 Octane from Sunoco… The others were recorded after I installed the CPS and wanted to get a baseline with 93 octane… I know they are all bunched into one folder but if you look at the dates you can separate them. July are the logs with 100 Octane and then after that the regular 93 with the CPS. Hope they help…but it shows one thing for sure, the difference a little octane boost or GOOD gas will do…
nah, if the APR TCU is making the car slower, that’s on APR, not their customer who paid them thousands of dollars for it to work.
It should be pretty foolproof and you’re smart as fuck. If it’s a pain for you to manage, it’s a pain for everyone. The real problem is that GIAC and APR aren’t friendly and you can’t really interchange without purchasing two tunes. i.e. I’d much rather have a GIAC TCU since they seem to have it figured out while APR are still lost at sea. They’re making you slower…they’re making primetime slower…and you’re the only ones testing your cars. Everyone else is just out there butt dynoing saying ‘WOW THIS IS GREAT!’
Since my name has been brought up by drob, i’ll explain a few things.
First of all, nice language drob. Real classy guy. You get that upset over the internet or just that classy always?
Regarding “using” your logs. You just got done crying (it seemed like you were literally crying) about how these forums are for helping others solve problems and gain performance. You PUBLICLY posted your logs for that reason and I publicly reposted them for exactly reason. Can you show me in that post where I said drobs car sucks, apr sucks, anything like that? Nope.
So what did we have? Several cars all pulling timing and opening up the bpv. The cars had different hardware setups and all used different gas stations.
What would you be thinking could be a way to explain this and help them drob? Ghost knock apparently? On all the cars? Ok, lets rule that out for now. Could be but lets just say that is unlikely.
How about bad gas? Hmmm. All different cars from different regions using different fuel pumps. Ok, lets keep that in the back of our minds for later. Could be but lets keep looking.
How about these cars tend to get hot and they pull timing when they are hot and they open the bypass valve when they sense knock (are pulling timing) enough? Hmmm, that could be. All the cars are running the same timing profile arent they? Yup. Also you may have been reading that another few cars have also posted the same issues. Not a big issue or big deal but certainly a little issue we could help people understand and help with right?
So what does your tuner say about those cars that were pulling timing?
[QUOTE=Sean@APR;10870255]S4s can run low 12s (12.0,12.1) with street tires, pump gas and 1500-1600 DA. His OAT wasn’t any higher than ours was when we did our testing track days.
Looking at the knock retard, it’s almost certainly fuel and maybe hot lapping causing the problem. The S4 does not hop lap well at all. We tested it and on average lost a tenth and a half when we hot lapped it. The best results were achieved letting it cool for about 30 minutes between runs.
[/quote]
When a person says bad gas and heat drob, what do you think they are referring to? Do you think it could be referring to timing retard and the bpv opening ON THAT PROGRAM and IN THOSE CONDITIONS? Gee I wonder.
So then a new guy running a 98ron program (93.5 usa aki) posts a ton of timing pull and the bpv opening as well. Humm? Look familiar?
Do a bunch of people enter that thread and start bashing the OP and the tuner? Of course not drob. Because we don’t think like you and feel we all have to defend everything about our cars with blinders on because we are stubborn and irrational.
What does the tuner say in this thread?
[QUOTE=Sean@APR;11125382]Heh… a little timing pull isn’t a bad thing. We tune for what we consider to be average fuel to have a slight amount of pull (2 or 3 degrees). That should give good results on average fuel, decent results on bad fuel and great results on great fuel.
Take the time to try all your local stations. You’re likely to also find one like we did that sells the good stuff.
[/quote]
Ok, so at least we know the tuner does NOT think 8 degrees of retard is what they are shooting for. So what else do they say?
Well he tells the person to use the 91 octane (95 ron) program in his region that sells 98ron. The thought is the fuel in his region IS NOT UP TO PAR WITH WHAT THEY TIMED THE CAR ON!!!
[QUOTE=Sean@APR;11129143]1. The 95 Ron tune shouldn’t bypass anything
2. 9 degrees is more than we like to see, but it’s only a spike, so you’re not taking any serious risks
3. A little colder plug wouldn’t hurt. Intakes don’t help with timing pull, but the S4 intake tube is a weak spot, so buying one is a good improvement. CPS is great in the summer. France winter is cold enough that the CPS won’t help as much.
4. Soon… it’s being worked on every day.
I’m glad your dealer is good and thank you for being a customer!
[/quote]
So we’ve established fuel quality can affect timing and power and boost!!! Wow, what a new concept. Its hard for drob to swallow but most of us can follow the logic.
So lets get back to drobs car. You post that you were pulling 8 degrees of timing and now you post that you have a few new mods, added some e85, are running in pretty darn nice conditions, and are only pulling 2 or 3 degrees of retard.
Well what does Saki have to say about your new mods?
I disagree with that a little bit but lets all agree that exhaust mods at least aren’t a huge power adder.
So your car gains 5mph in trap speed and is now USING 6 DEGREES MORE TIMING from having 6 degrees LESS TIMING RETARD.
So what does drob decide to attribute his GAIN IN 5 MPH IN TRAP to? Drumroll… the APR TCU tune that gives him slightly faster shifts in a car that already shifts in 80ms and the same TCU tune that our record holder has stated really needs some work. That’s where you picked up that 50hp in trap speed from? Brilliant drob.
Do you think maybe it has to do with being able to run an additional 6 degrees of timing while also maintaining the same boost? Nah, couldn’t be that.
Drob you are a real defensive class act. Do me a favor and keep my name out of your mouth when you talk like a trash bucket.
When a person says bad gas and heat drob, what do you think they are referring to? Do you think it could be referring to timing retard and the bpv opening ON THAT PROGRAM and IN THOSE CONDITIONS? Gee I wonder.
So then a new guy running a 98ron program (93.5 usa aki) posts a ton of timing pull and the bpv opening as well. Humm? Look familiar?
Do a bunch of people enter that thread and start bashing the OP and the tuner? Of course not drob. Because we don’t think like you and feel we all have to defend everything about our cars with blinders on because we are stubborn and irrational.
What does the tuner say in this thread?
[QUOTE=Sean@APR;11125382]Heh… a little timing pull isn’t a bad thing. We tune for what we consider to be average fuel to have a slight amount of pull (2 or 3 degrees). That should give good results on average fuel, decent results on bad fuel and great results on great fuel.
Take the time to try all your local stations. You’re likely to also find one like we did that sells the good stuff.
[/quote]
Ok, so at least we know the tuner does NOT think 8 degrees of retard is what they are shooting for. So what else do they say?
Well he tells the person to use the 91 octane (95 ron) program in his region that sells 98ron. The thought is the fuel in his region IS NOT UP TO PAR WITH WHAT THEY TIMED THE CAR ON!!!
[QUOTE=Sean@APR;11129143]1. The 95 Ron tune shouldn’t bypass anything
2. 9 degrees is more than we like to see, but it’s only a spike, so you’re not taking any serious risks
3. A little colder plug wouldn’t hurt. Intakes don’t help with timing pull, but the S4 intake tube is a weak spot, so buying one is a good improvement. CPS is great in the summer. France winter is cold enough that the CPS won’t help as much.
4. Soon… it’s being worked on every day.
I’m glad your dealer is good and thank you for being a customer!
[/quote]
So we’ve established fuel quality can affect timing and power and boost!!! Wow, what a new concept. Its hard for drob to swallow but most of us can follow the logic.
So lets get back to drobs car. You post that you were pulling 8 degrees of timing and now you post that you have a few new mods, added some e85, are running in pretty darn nice conditions, and are only pulling 2 or 3 degrees of retard.
Well what does Saki have to say about your new mods?
I disagree with that a little bit but lets all agree that exhaust mods at least aren’t a huge power adder.
So your car gains 5mph in trap speed and is now USING 6 DEGREES MORE TIMING from having 6 degrees LESS TIMING RETARD.
So what does drob decide to attribute his GAIN IN 5 MPH IN TRAP to? Drumroll… the APR TCU tune that gives him slightly faster shifts in a car that already shifts in 80ms and the same TCU tune that our record holder has stated really needs some work. That’s where you picked up that 50hp in trap speed from? Brilliant drob.
Do you think maybe it has to do with being able to run an additional 6 degrees of timing while also maintaining the same boost? Nah, couldn’t be that.
Drob you are a real defensive class act. Do me a favor and keep my name out of your mouth when you talk like a trash bucket.
Mike
[/quote]
I’m not even going to go through that thesis and dispute each claim. If you had been following what has happened to my car, you would realize that I went and ran horrible times in -700 DA. Then I broke the cat off one of my exhaust. Then I broke test pipes. Then I ran the car with MS109 and still had 8 degrees of timing pull, on a frickin pump tune. But you didn’t know any of that, because you didn’t read, just pulled the logs and ran with it, as evidenced by your realization in the thread on AZ http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/658285-13-1-second-APR-Stage-2-w-DSG-tune?p=10870377&viewfull=1#post10870377
Regarding taking my logs to use an example of how APR cars are running lots of timing. That was your agenda because you were Derping around with the whole “well CW pulls 8 deg of timing but so does APR so it’s ok”. I remember you calling me an idiot for running my car at Mid Ohio in that state. That was the whole focal point of all of your posting. And yea, you are a cunt for taking the logs from my cars issues and using that to frame your argument without consulting me. I think you are also a cunt for taking moogas’s logs and doing the same thing. If you and your friend are gonna cry about getting called names, well guess what, don’t post on the internet.
The good news is that now my car is running fine, anything I post won’t fit your narrative. So thankfully I don’t need to deal with any more of your BS. And LOL at your advice on how I should make my car go faster. I’ll stick to asking the guys like Jeff and Ron for advice, you know, the ones actually going fast?
[quote]I ran the car with MS109 and still had 8 degrees of timing pull, on a frickin pump tune
[/quote]
this is the key. Anyone who was blaming the tune’s timing parameters being unrealistic for a given level of labelled octane level for the car pulling timing would do well to re-read this post
first of all, pulling timing is good…because it means your car (and tune) are actively protecting the car from unideal conditions. If you call a tune that pulls timing aggressive, you’re probably not too familiar with tuning 101. Unless that tune is asking for LUDICROUS timing levels (think the first batch of REVO tunes), seeing your car pull timing means the tune still has active safety control engaged, and it is doing what it is supposed to do.
If you say the timing request is too aggressive for the octane level, and the customer then jacks the octane level up 16 r+m/2 octane points…and STILL sees the exact same conditions, well that tells you one of two things
the tune has magically changed between the 93 and 109 logs and is now requesting even more retarded levels of ignition timing because it knows 109 is in the tank(this didn’t happen)
something else is wrong (this is far more likely)
I’m not sure why the chipwerkers aren’t seeing that. Your car can pull timing aggressively to protect it for LOADS of reasons. Looking at only 1 reason and saying the tune isn’t safe is a bit overly simple, isn’t it?
Drob posted that he had bad cat(s). Failed cats can cause all kinds of problems on these cars, and will have the ECU go into protected overdrive to be safe.
Drob also posted this:
[quote]My theory before was that the timing pull was due to false knock from my exhaust. I have the exhaust off and a new one on, and the timing pull wasn’t there. Not sure if that’s conclusive enough but I’m pretty convinced. The new exhaust is a lot quieter and I feel no vibration at the pedal.
[/quote]
If we shove a couple of bananas in the exhaust pipes, and log/track the car and the results suck…then remove that exhaust and log it/track it again with a non-banana exhaust and the car goes faster, is anyone claiming that changing exhaust makes power gains on the car? No. Nobody is claiming that.
What Drob is saying is that faulty exhaust components can sure rob you of power if something is wrong with them. Thta’s pretty clear here.
oh and another thought…everyone can have a debate about what they think is right or wrong, but let’s not cloud up this results thread with the various backseat tuner arguments (including my own). Maybe a moderator could split this off into a new thread titled ‘Debating the efficacy of Ignition Timing requests on APR stage 2 tunes’. Sounds nice
this is the key. Anyone who was blaming the tune’s timing parameters being unrealistic for a given level of labelled octane level for the car pulling timing would do well to re-read this post
[/quote]
Maybe drob got some bad gas in that run (and I hate to sound like a tuner), but it is interesting primetime once said this about MS109: “Personally, my car never ran that well on this fuel and I don’t like it. I get timing pull.”
All I can say is we see other owners logging B8.5 APR 93 and all (so far) seeing 6-9+ knock correction that goes away proportionately as they increase octane beyond 93. And they see timing values never seen before on a pump tune.
So did anyone look at moogas’s log when he added a little 100 octane?
I saw it hit 24.75 degrees on the top end with still some (but much less) knock correction. The log resolution is bad so we only have a couple timing samples, so I don’t know what it actually peaked at, but with even more octane and some better logging resolution I would not be surprised if moogas sees 26-27 degrees near redline. This is the timing maps when they don’t need to correct - and why I believe they generally correct pretty hard on ‘average’ 93 gas. Try it and see.
We’re all just trying to help each other, too bad things got off on the wrong foot.
I know I should just let this die but dont any of the CW pimps come in here and try to make a case against APR and clealy have eveyone here know thats whats going on and wonder why Drob or anyone would tell you to F off.
First off quit calling yourself a tuner your not. If you were you would be smart enough to know each car and condition is different. Each car is going to see a large amount of change and see a large wide range of variance between cars. If timing pull is so bad call the Audi tuners and tell them they suck because each Audi will have some sort of timing pull at some time. Some more then others.
To say APR has too much timing pull is complete bull shit. Why… well because several years later not one APR car has shown or had any issues related to the tune. Also timing pull isnt a bad thing depending on the company tuning the car. If APR sets its corrections to boost temps to be aggressive then you will see more timing pull. If one car has a intercooler that isnt flowing as good as another you can expect more heat and more knock.
Some cars will correct more some will correct less. The stock tune will correct and show timing pull. Using the point that APR cars see more pull then normal is bs because you need to define normal. Also APR cars are some of the fastest cars and with a faster running car or motor in this case you can see a wide range of cars in a wide range of modification stages.
Im all for keeping peoples cars safe and keeping people in the know. If this wasnt APR and it was a flybynight unproven tune we might have something to talk about. but when you see APR cars having cases where they are correcting boost and correcting timing you should feel more good then scared.
Trying to say that because one guy didn’t like MS109 and it didn’t give the results he wanted has nothing to do with the APR tune.
To me it seems like only someone on a witch hunt would read that Drob gets the same correction on pump as he does 109 and think its tune only related.
