Closer

Skywagon · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

[quote=“drob23,post:240,topic:6626”]
I still think it’s interesting how Revo cars log differently. Apparently my quote was sent to the engineer who replied below:

I gave the car a once over, and finding no issues with any of the hardware, strapped it to the dyno and we’re off to the races. It made 343whp, on the 100 map with the methanol (100% blend) on, which is about right on par with what other 1+ cars have made here, on plain 93. I was noticing some boost oscillation and control issues down low, as well as a very rich mixture when the methanol was on. This was the first car I’ve had here on our new dyno with all the goodies including CPS and headers, and it did teach me some things. Tuesday morning I had some more information I needed to make some more changes, and I stepped through 4 or 5 revisions until I got it performing happily.

The APR CPS was very very impressive-- intake temps were very consistent and barely over ambient… this caused the car to meet my torque requests with less boost than would normally be required, which caused the bypass valve to open more than it normally would. The SIMOS ECU is very smart, and it will blend various strategies to arrive at a consistent and smooth power output.

This isn’t at all how the system works, let me correct you here. The bypass valve is a BYPRODUCT of power request, there is no way to simply force it shut and let ignition advance control the power. The ECU will select various strategies as it sees fit for the conditions and for drivability. Simply requesting more than the car can ever achieve leads to inconsistent power and a car that can’t add more torque if needed. So my strategy is to leave a little bit in reserve to allow for smoother drivability. On most cars, with high IATs and stock hardware, this works great. On Ed’s car, with chilly IATs and a very open exhaust system, the car was so efficient at making what I asked that it didn’t need to try as hard. It was bleeding a good bit of boost off and running strong, smooth ignition timing with zero retard which is how the SIMOS ECU prefers to operate.

After asking it to run a bit harder and raising some airflow limits below 3000rpm, it became a lot stronger and smoothed right out. The car was now making 5hp more on the 93 map, with no meth, than it was on the 100 map with meth. I then proceeded onto the 100 tune with the meth on, and we arrived at 362whp, a gain of 19whp and 12wtq pretty much from 3000rpm on. You can see from this graph how the 100 map runs a wee bit less boost than the 93 tune, as it’s making it’s extra power from ignition timing, and can afford to crack the valve a bit to ease EGT and intake temperature loads. Keep in mind it was about 30 degrees F ambient in my dyno room, on a warmer day it will run more boost to keep the power consistent.

Red line: as it came in. Blue: revised tuning on 93oct, no methanol. Green: revised 100oct tuning, methanol on.

Resigzed Image Click this bar to view the full image.

I’m in the process of moving these changes over into our production 1+ software, it will help with cars that have all the bolt-on goodies to take advantage of the winter weather and make strong boost, and won’t affect stock hardware cars negatively.

Sky I think it’s also strange how you frequently say “Call Jeff at REVO, he has the answers.” Why don’t you take ownership of any of this knowledge/testing data or even what exactly they did? Are you not even there to watch them as they work on your car? This is one of the problems that led you to where we are now, an example being how you installed the meth system but never figured out whether it was working properly or not, just assumed the shop did everything and it was “set it and forget it.” You are trusting a lot of people with your car, and while they may have your best interest in mind, you should at least be there and understand what they did and why they did it. My .02

Drob, I spent the entire day Monday at REVO. Customers are not allowed in the dyno bay but there is a big window for viewing. Watching a car go through numerous runs as Robin sat in the drivers seat working on his computer, for hours, is not my idea of an education. We had a discussion several times during the day about progress and ideas. That was when we decided to leave the car strapped to the dyno overnight and Robin contacted the UK, REVO’s home office. Robin started on the car the next morning. I decided to stay at my friends house and arrived at REVO about 2:30 Tuesday afternoon as Robin had the car out for a road test. That is when we went over what he finally had done, some of the days previous ideas were disposed of. Also, REVO had sent a file from the UK that was installed and perhaps(?) refined. The entire evolution was FREE. The knowledge gained helps REVO, their current and future customers, and me. Whether or not REVO releases the logs is unknown to me. As we all know they approach the tuning differently than APR and GIAC. Perhaps they don’t particularly want to share information about their product? I am a computer layman. I’ll own whatever makes you happy. I will not know anything from a practical stand point until I do the 1/4 mile. I hope this helps? Thanks.

euroswagr · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

It was funny to see Revo say…[quote]We reached out to Skywagon as he was concerned that his setup might not be performing optimally, and his low trap speed at the strip backed this up.
[/quote]
Hoolllly Fuck, I think Skywagon should apologize to this forum or did he argue with REVO that it was traction too!

Skywagon · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Ron, at least REVO was able to prove your thoughts. I’ll contact them about releasing their logs. As far as the thread on Audizine goes, I’m laughing and smiling too, with joy. Thanks.

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Hoolllly Fuck, I think Skywagon should apologize to this forum or did he argue with REVO that it was traction too!
[/quote]
He referenced spinning the tires… lol Probably not in the same way but still thought it was funny…

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/632375-Visit-To-Revo?p=10402992&viewfull=1#post10402992

drob23 · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Skywagon:

Drob, I spent the entire day Monday at REVO. Customers are not allowed in the dyno bay but there is a big window for viewing. Watching a car go through numerous runs as Robin sat in the drivers seat working on his computer, for hours, is not my idea of an education. We had a discussion several times during the day about progress and ideas. That was when we decided to leave the car strapped to the dyno overnight and Robin contacted the UK, REVO’s home office. Robin started on the car the next morning. I decided to stay at my friends house and arrived at REVO about 2:30 Tuesday afternoon as Robin had the car out for a road test. That is when we went over what he finally had done, some of the days previous ideas were disposed of. Also, REVO had sent a file from the UK that was installed and perhaps(?) refined. The entire evolution was FREE. The knowledge gained helps REVO, their current and future customers, and me. Whether or not REVO releases the logs is unknown to me. As we all know they approach the tuning differently than APR and GIAC. Perhaps they don’t particularly want to share information about their product? I am a computer layman. I’ll own whatever makes you happy. I will not know anything from a practical stand point until I do the 1/4 mile. I hope this helps? Thanks.

Sounds good, and I think the results will hopefully get you where you want to be. I was just commenting on the way you were posting on AZ. But fair enough, sounds like that’s a lot to take in and I might have worded it poorly (“you should be at the shop” etc).

One suggestion, which I’m trying to follow through myself for track days, is to keep a small composition book so you can write notes to yourself about what’s done, how it runs, where some files are saved on your computer etc. Especially given how complex your setup is now. I believe currently most of your build has been documented with a bunch of threads, that usually spiraled out of control lol. But this is just a suggestion.

Good luck and hope this works out for you. Kudos to REVO who essentially gave you a free custom dyno tune for your setup. Interested to see how it performs.

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

[quote=“Skywagon,post:244,topic:6626”]
Yep… APR/GIAC are aware as well as GIAC has already released an update… Again, sky just having fun with this and no bad intention as at the end of the day it’s your car and I hope you are happy… Once we see 1/4 times will know for sure… Will be curious how their “winter” tune works in the summer of NC… There was a particular fellow in Canada that had some experience with their tune in the summer… Didn’t end very well but I’m sure that wouldn’t happen again!!! What kind of timing you seeing at 7000RPM? Any boost bypass still?

Skywagon · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

He referenced spinning the tires… lol Probably not in the same way but still thought it was funny…

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/632375-Visit-To-Revo?p=10402992&viewfull=1#post10402992
[/quote]
OK, OK, as you know I meant on the dyno.

westwest888 · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

I’m glad my lowly 2010 with the red DIS “just works”.

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

OK, OK, as you know I meant on the dyno.
[/quote]
I know I was joking…

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

If you call running low 13’s with race gas and race tune working? Probably driver issues though… Oh and my lowly 2010 car with the red DIS “just works” also…

Skywagon · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

[quote=“primetime,post:247,topic:6626”]

I have not seen any logs myself. Just e-mailed Jeff about posting some. I’m going to 7000 RPM. Robin told me yesterday that he got the boost up from 16 to about 17 PSI. I understand what you are driving at about a winter tune. Monday the DA was a -750, Tuesday a -1700. Wonderful weather for making HP. Robin did get into the Aquamist controller and adjusted the spray without changing the jets. Also has it coming on earlier that the previous 4000 RPM. I’m hoping that along with the 50/50 mix keeps things cool this summer?

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Sky, Gotcha… I’m sure everyone would like to see them and you could replicate so hopefully they will share but GIAC never does so who knows… As for summer vs winter it’s something you need to monitor… Their comments have me scratching my head a little in terms of the bypass valve… APR/GIAC clearly have a way to “force” it closed, how I have no clue… This was the issue APR fixed in 2011 on my car via winter testing as the bypass was staying shut in the summer but opening in the fall/winter months when I was going to the strip… They then control detonation via timing values and retard… As you know Revo takes a different approach and I’d want to know timing values especially on the race tune if they are now “forcing” the bypass closed and you don’t show any retard of timing… Closed bypass, high timing, and no pull could equal trouble… Again, I said “could” as I’m not sure but given the limited Revo data I’d be curious… Again, just something you should be aware of…

Alessandro23 · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

we all need to get together and compare i am also looking forward to see what my giac stage 2 V2 can do on my 2015 S5

euroswagr · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

So no apology to the members of AR for trying to help you?

sakimano · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Hoolllly Fuck, I think Skywagon should apologize to this forum or did he argue with REVO that it was traction too!
[/quote]
don’t be ridiculous. revo doesn’t know what they’re talking about either. He just needs some 335s.

sakimano · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

ZING!

what’s red DIS? You guys don’t have NAV?

Do you even know how to sail?

sakimano · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

you’re in Toronto? You can come with us to the strip. There’s a few RS4 owners. Used to be a couple of B8 S4 owners but they sold their cars or aren’t allowed to drive them anymore. If you know any local B8 guys, get them to come out. We can organize it in the spring when the tracks open up again.

Skywagon · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

Jeff, REVO, just e-mailed me they are out of office taking delivery of a new car for development but will post some logs when they return.

Alessandro23 · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

haha what to you mean by not allowed to drive them anymore? I am from London could come to Cayuga for sure but looking forward seeing some guys at Sparta as well.

primetime · December 8, 2019, 4:42pm

In the early B8 cars if you didn’t get NAV you got the old school red DIS and not the color version… I didn’t want nav but did want the color DIS but it wasn’t a show stopper… Honestly, I was more pissed that I couldn’t delete the fucking sunroof… So no Nav for me… The RS has Nav and I’ve used it… zero times… lol No I don’t know how to sail…