Decision to get APR TCU software

[drob23]

Was going to post in primetime’s thread, but I don’t want to sidetrack the reviews.

I’m really conflicted on what to do here, since 1k is not cheap (I think this should be priced at 700 since GIAC and REVO charge this, and APR are very late to the table). No one has tested this at the strip on AZ, largely because APR is missing files for half the people…only person I’m aware of is Primetime (mrmomo couldn’t get a built file). He is trapping great but still having some quirks (it’s really hot here today, so imagining thompson won’t be great tonight?).

I asked Sean/Arin some questions in the AZ thread and they ducked them http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/650865-APR-Presents-the-DL501-S-Tronic-TCU-Upgrade-for-the-B8-B8-5-S4-amp-S5!?p=10766537&viewfull=1#post10766537. No addressing the 11.59x time and nothing about how the 1/8 mile passes are showing no gains from the TCU software.

At this point, the DSG tune is being sold mostly on subjective merit’s as far as I’m concerned. They do have the .15 et and 1.5 mph trap delta on the 2014 93 passes, but there is still something weird about the 1/8 stats. Keep in mind that I have a 2013 B8.5 DSG and my best pass is 12.45@110 with a DA of around 0 (Milan in the late fall).

So now, let’s address the “features” of this tune as they appear on APR’s website https://www.goapr.com/products/tcu_upgrade_dl501_30t.html, see my responses in yellow

-7,200 max shift point with gear dependent overshoot protection.
HUGE, probably reason number 1 I would get this, but is this worth 1k?
-User adjustable 3-Step multiple launch control RPM.
Stupid, no need for this
-User definable* max launch control RPM up to 6,000 RPM.
Would probably set this to 4k, no need for 6k launches
-User definable* manual mode downshifts (on/off).
Stupid feature, why would you not downshift when pulling up to a light…does the car stall?
-User definable* manual mode upshifts (on/off).
Decent feature I suppose, still haven’t seen a vid of it hitting the rev limiter (did you send this to me Prime? I forget). This would be kind of nice for the road course, but I’m still in intermediate HPDE, so lap times aren’t a huge focus of mine.
-Launch control enabled on all models.
Already have factory LC.
-Launch control response enhanced for quicker launches.
I see ZERO data to support this
-Launch control limits raised from 200 to 3000 launches.
I have 13 launches on my DSG, so I don’t really care about this…
-Launch control Max acceleration mode enabled for the fastest possible acceleration.
Maybe interesting for drag racing, but that’s it. Only enter this when enabling LC, which for me is drag strip only. And honestly, the data doesn’t show me that this is beicial.
-Multiple acceleration modes defined for various driving scenarios.
WTF does this mean.
-Manual mode / TT mode paddle response time optimized.
Not sure what this means, I always assumed this was due to the DSG guessing the wrong gear and not preselecting it correctly. When I’m hammering the car, the shifts are incredibly fast.
-Manual mode / TT mode shift optimized with gear dependent thresholds on Gen 2/B8.5 Models.
Not sure what this means.
-Torque intervention limits raised, while retaining temperature protection.
So this means the ECU tune dials back unless you have the DSG software? What about for 6MT guys?
-Temperature management modified.
Is this a good thing? I’ve hammered the car and never had problems with this on a road course. Maybe something bad is happening if you hot lap at the strip?
-Transmission coolant pump optimized during high temp scenarios.
Again, wtf is this, not sure I trust APR is doing something great here.
-Gear display enabled in Drive and Sport.
LOL at VCDS coding touted as a “feature” of your tune.
-Optimized Drive and Sport mode shift maps.
I never drive in D or S mode, but what does this mean? Did audi do the shift maps wrong or something?
-Downshift “lockout” disabled below previous gear’s max RPM.
I thought they already changed the shift maps? That should implicitly fix this.
-First gear, rolling-stop, “clunk” addressed.
I don’t really get this, I think the B8.5 DSG is in general smoother, as it never goes to 1st gear while slowing down unless you ask for it.
-First gear “short shift” addressed.
Drag strip stuff, nice, but should be implicitly fixed by changing the shift maps.
-Significant power increase on applications meeting peak power well above the vehicle’s factory defined shift points.
Same “feature” as the first one.

So now the question becomes, is the new tune designed to only work properly with the TCU tune? I.e. why was mrmomo seeing weird behavior (could have been tire pressure, I know). And then, does APR really know how to better tune a DSG than Audi? Maybe 10 months ago I would have given them some beit of the doubt, but with the shadiness, primetime still having issues while they launched, not being able to directly answer questions, pricing way out of the market etc…man I really have no idea wtf to do. Am going to Milan next wed, so I should probably decide soon. :-\

[sakimano]

offer $400 for just the RPM raise. Skip launch control, skip ‘quicker’ (lol) shifting, skip everything else.

[mrmomo313]

Honestly in your case I’d want it solely for the fact you can’t make use of the entire power band right now. At 1k thats steep for just that reason but what are your options here… Switch to GIAC? That’ll run you more even with the discount they’ll cut for switching.

Interestingly, one of the main reasons I want the dsg tune is for improved drivability and addressing the 2-1 downshift… The 2010’s definitely have some quirks when it comes to the dsg. I still LOL at how it performs when the car is cold, it can be embarrassing if I have a passenger with me. With higher mileage, it just doesnt behave the same way it did during the first 50k miles I had the car. After the mech unit repair it got better but it still has its moments, I know others on AZ have reported similar quirks… Once warmed up and at WOT its a peach, no doubt there.

Aside from that, extra rpm and launch control would be cool to experience. I’m curious to so see if the new “a max” mode helps at the strip. I don’t see why it wouldn’t… time will tell

Re: price I’m with you. They overpriced it and really don’t offer THAT much more than GIAC imo… 800 wouldve been sufficient. Think they are trying to recoup sunk costs in other departments with this price tag.

[OldSport]

-7,200 max shift point with gear dependent overshoot protection.
HUGE, probably reason number 1 I would get this, but is this worth 1k?

To me this is the main benefit for you, and I do think you’d really enjoy it at the track (road course). That said, I would also be struggling as to whether or not it’s worth the $1k pricetag. Maybe wait for a sale?

I appreciate the dilemma (6MT here so a bit simpler for me).

[OldSport]

I meant to type “benefit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

[moogas1]

For what it’s worth, I’m having the same dilemma. I already had the ECU update done and car feels great no issues with more power as mrmomo has confirmed with his times. As most of us agree, the only reason I would/will get the TCU flash is the increased RPM’s other than that no real interest in LC because I only use it once in awhile and every time I do it runs slower then smashing the throttle. Shifting manually the car is pretty dead on and I haven’t had the chance to road race it at a designated track event. So, in short I feel your pain and some of the local guys have confirmed our concerns. “Why be the ginea pigs”. All the AD are eating it all up almost no questions asked…
I’m waiting awhile maybe until waterfest if I can make it over there or doing it here with the local APR dealer. No hurry until I get some times with only the ECU update first…cheers and good luck whatever your decision. By the way, drop, you bought up some good points on your post on the other forum.

[moogas1]

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

Now you made me want to go fishing, lol.

[sakimano]

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

it’s ok, the site blocks the letters n e f in sequence

[drob23]

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

lol it’s weird to pick up what’s going on. There is a website kind of like pirate bay for car tunes…it starts with the bold letters be n e f it …every time those characters are written here they are vaporized ;D

Favorite version of that I’ve seen is on woopig.net, where every time you write ‘shit’ it replaces with ‘aTm’ and ‘hell’ with starkville.

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

Now you made me want to go fishing, lol.

I thought real fisherman used these 8)

http://www.fly-fishing-discounters.com/images/mayflywulffadamsD022.jpg

[moogas1]

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

lol it’s weird to pick up what’s going on. There is a website kind of like pirate bay for car tunes…it starts with the bold letters be n e f it …every time those characters are written here they are vaporized ;D

Favorite version of that I’ve seen is on woopig.net, where every time you write ‘shit’ it replaces with ‘aTm’ and ‘hell’ with starkville.

I meant to type “beit” though one might fairly read my post as saying “bait,” mis-spelled albeit. Wish I could edit my posts.

Now you made me want to go fishing, lol.

I thought real fisherman used these 8)

http://www.fly-fishing-discounters.com/images/mayflywulffadamsD022.jpg

Dragonfly…? Haven’t tried fly fishing yet…

[OldSport]

haha, now I’ve totally jacked this thread sorry.

[infinkc]

My suggestion since you are on the fence about it. They offer 30 day money back for whatever reason. Load it up, drive the heck out of it, take it to the track. If you dont think its worth 1k, get your $ back minus whatever your shop will charge you to flash it. Almost nothing to lose.

[sakimano]

fly fishing seems like too much work. You have to be a bit pedantic.

[moogas1]

My suggestion since you are on the fence about it. They offer 30 day money back for whatever reason. Load it up, drive the heck out of it, take it to the track. If you dont think its worth 1k, get your $ back minus whatever your shop will charge you to flash it. Almost nothing to lose.

So you’re saying jump the fence and if you don’t like it jump back over to the other side… You know very well that most will keep it. What’s the rate of return for this products…very low I’m assuming. What a 2% return rate it that…? We’d all stick it out and bitch until corrected or find a way around what we don’t like. I’m waiting until I feel the product is finally out of The Beta zone and actually completely ready. Like I said earlier “I will not be the guinea pig unless APR OFFERS ME A DEAL I CANT REFUSE”. Hehehe

[sakimano]

I’m waiting until I feel the product is finally out of The Beta zone and actually completely ready

smart

[moogas1]

I’m waiting until I feel the product is finally out of The Beta zone and actually completely ready

smart

Thank You ;D

[rs4nightmares]

I’ve got a 2013 stage 2 S4 and I’ve been running the TCU tune and V3 update for about 10 days now. I’ll address some of these based on my experience. Meant to post this earlier, but have been very busy. Overall, it’s tough to really say if it’s worth $1000 in an abstract sense, but at this point I feel like it makes the car more “whole,” with the transmission matching the tuned engine’s output given the short shifting that we have with B8.5s. Most of this is due to the raised redline. If I had a B8, it would be a much tougher decision. I guess you could always return it within 30 days. Overall, I’m happy with the experience and the car feels more pleasant to drive aggressively and around town.

-7,200 max shift point with gear dependent overshoot protection.
HUGE, probably reason number 1 I would get this, but is this worth 1k?
Yup, this is a huge difference so far
-User adjustable 3-Step multiple launch control RPM.
Stupid, no need for this
Not particularly interesting, but doesn’t hurt I suppose. I set mine to 3, 4, 5k rpm. Only tried 4k so far, felt like a harder launch than the stock 3k.
-User definable* max launch control RPM up to 6,000 RPM.
Would probably set this to 4k, no need for 6k launches
-User definable* manual mode downshifts (on/off).
Stupid feature, why would you not downshift when pulling up to a light…does the car stall?
Not quite what this does. It just disables the kickdown switch in manual mode. I left it on because I have enough throttle control to go full throttle in a given gear in manual mode when I want, and it’s convenient to be able to kick down to the lowest possible gear by activating the kickdown switch in the throttle pedal
-User definable* manual mode upshifts (on/off).
Decent feature I suppose, still haven’t seen a vid of it hitting the rev limiter (did you send this to me Prime? I forget). This would be kind of nice for the road course, but I’m still in intermediate HPDE, so lap times aren’t a huge focus of mine.
No comment, I left this on as well. It is a useful feature for people doing autoX/track. Otherwise, personal preference.
-Launch control enabled on all models.
Already have factory LC.
-Launch control response enhanced for quicker launches.
I see ZERO data to support this
Probably means that there’s less delay between releasing the brake and the actual launch. Might have been the case in my one launch; seemed pretty immediate.
-Launch control limits raised from 200 to 3000 launches.
I have 13 launches on my DSG, so I don’t really care about this…
-Launch control Max acceleration mode enabled for the fastest possible acceleration.
Maybe interesting for drag racing, but that’s it. Only enter this when enabling LC, which for me is drag strip only. And honestly, the data doesn’t show me that this is beicial.
B8.5s with the “gen 2” DL501s already had this enabled I believe. My car shifted like that when it was accelerating after LC on stock TCU software.
-Multiple acceleration modes defined for various driving scenarios.
WTF does this mean.
-Manual mode / TT mode paddle response time optimized.
Not sure what this means, I always assumed this was due to the DSG guessing the wrong gear and not preselecting it correctly. When I’m hammering the car, the shifts are incredibly fast.
This means less delay between paddle input and actual shift. Shifting was already responsive at high RPM with stock TCU, but I feel it’s become more responsive at low/moderate RPM.
-Manual mode / TT mode shift optimized with gear dependent thresholds on Gen 2/B8.5 Models.
Not sure what this means.
Not sure either, this might be referring to the fact that B8.5s were shifting at 5800 1-2, 6100 2-3 and 6400 for the rest of the gears?
-Torque intervention limits raised, while retaining temperature protection.
So this means the ECU tune dials back unless you have the DSG software? What about for 6MT guys?
-Temperature management modified.
Is this a good thing? I’ve hammered the car and never had problems with this on a road course. Maybe something bad is happening if you hot lap at the strip?
-Transmission coolant pump optimized during high temp scenarios.
Again, wtf is this, not sure I trust APR is doing something great here.
-Gear display enabled in Drive and Sport.
LOL at VCDS coding touted as a “feature” of your tune.
-Optimized Drive and Sport mode shift maps.
I never drive in D or S mode, but what does this mean? Did audi do the shift maps wrong or something?
Shift maps feel pretty similar to stock B8.5 shift maps. D mode is slightly more aggressive and pleasant; not shifting to 7th as obnoxiously early. S mode is maybe a hair more aggressive at holding gears as well. This is probably a bigger difference for B8 S mode, which was less aggressive
-Downshift “lockout” disabled below previous gear’s max RPM.
I thought they already changed the shift maps? That should implicitly fix this.
This is referring to manually downshifting. Before, downshifting to a lower gear would be locked out if your current speed would put you above a certain artificial RPM threshold. Now, it will downshift as long as you’re going to end up below redline
-First gear, rolling-stop, “clunk” addressed.
I don’t really get this, I think the B8.5 DSG is in general smoother, as it never goes to 1st gear while slowing down unless you ask for it.
Yup, I think this is more for B8s
-First gear “short shift” addressed.
Drag strip stuff, nice, but should be implicitly fixed by changing the shift maps.
Seems to be a bit redundant with other “features” like you said. Car definitely seems to be going to around 7k in first gear now though (hard to tell exactly, happens very fast), so that’s nice.
-Significant power increase on applications meeting peak power well above the vehicle’s factory defined shift points.
Same “feature” as the first one.

[justincredible]

The price tag seems a but much considering what the other more successful giac Tcu tune is at. That and it sounds like other then the short shifting most b8.5 guys are happy with what they have.

I don’t know of it’s your style but try hitting up a giac dealer and see if they will give you the Tcu tune. If that’s not an open. Door try sending todd@awe a text I see he signs in alot that would suggest awe is still very interested in the s4 guys. I think the you need to have giac ecu tune to get a giac Tcu tune stuff is nonsense. I think we all know any company can sell a TCU tune there isn’t some magic that is put in the ecu to make the Tcu only work with X or y tuning.

I would try to see if you can get a giac DSG tune. If giac says no that’s there loss of money. At that point just wait for a sale from APR. I know your wanting to get back to the track but it’s going to be hot the next few months so you wouldn’t even get the most out of the Tcu tune.

[drob23]

I’ve got a 2013 stage 2 S4 and I’ve been running the TCU tune and V3 update for about 10 days now. I’ll address some of these based on my experience. Meant to post this earlier, but have been very busy. Overall, it’s tough to really say if it’s worth $1000 in an abstract sense, but at this point I feel like it makes the car more “whole,” with the transmission matching the tuned engine’s output given the short shifting that we have with B8.5s. Most of this is due to the raised redline. If I had a B8, it would be a much tougher decision. I guess you could always return it within 30 days. Overall, I’m happy with the experience and the car feels more pleasant to drive aggressively and around town.

-7,200 max shift point with gear dependent overshoot protection.
HUGE, probably reason number 1 I would get this, but is this worth 1k?
Yup, this is a huge difference so far
-User adjustable 3-Step multiple launch control RPM.
Stupid, no need for this
Not particularly interesting, but doesn’t hurt I suppose. I set mine to 3, 4, 5k rpm. Only tried 4k so far, felt like a harder launch than the stock 3k.
-User definable* max launch control RPM up to 6,000 RPM.
Would probably set this to 4k, no need for 6k launches
-User definable* manual mode downshifts (on/off).
Stupid feature, why would you not downshift when pulling up to a light…does the car stall?
Not quite what this does. It just disables the kickdown switch in manual mode. I left it on because I have enough throttle control to go full throttle in a given gear in manual mode when I want, and it’s convenient to be able to kick down to the lowest possible gear by activating the kickdown switch in the throttle pedal
-User definable* manual mode upshifts (on/off).
Decent feature I suppose, still haven’t seen a vid of it hitting the rev limiter (did you send this to me Prime? I forget). This would be kind of nice for the road course, but I’m still in intermediate HPDE, so lap times aren’t a huge focus of mine.
No comment, I left this on as well. It is a useful feature for people doing autoX/track. Otherwise, personal preference.
-Launch control enabled on all models.
Already have factory LC.
-Launch control response enhanced for quicker launches.
I see ZERO data to support this
Probably means that there’s less delay between releasing the brake and the actual launch. Might have been the case in my one launch; seemed pretty immediate.
-Launch control limits raised from 200 to 3000 launches.
I have 13 launches on my DSG, so I don’t really care about this…
-Launch control Max acceleration mode enabled for the fastest possible acceleration.
Maybe interesting for drag racing, but that’s it. Only enter this when enabling LC, which for me is drag strip only. And honestly, the data doesn’t show me that this is beicial.
B8.5s with the “gen 2” DL501s already had this enabled I believe. My car shifted like that when it was accelerating after LC on stock TCU software.
-Multiple acceleration modes defined for various driving scenarios.
WTF does this mean.
-Manual mode / TT mode paddle response time optimized.
Not sure what this means, I always assumed this was due to the DSG guessing the wrong gear and not preselecting it correctly. When I’m hammering the car, the shifts are incredibly fast.
This means less delay between paddle input and actual shift. Shifting was already responsive at high RPM with stock TCU, but I feel it’s become more responsive at low/moderate RPM.
-Manual mode / TT mode shift optimized with gear dependent thresholds on Gen 2/B8.5 Models.
Not sure what this means.
Not sure either, this might be referring to the fact that B8.5s were shifting at 5800 1-2, 6100 2-3 and 6400 for the rest of the gears?
-Torque intervention limits raised, while retaining temperature protection.
So this means the ECU tune dials back unless you have the DSG software? What about for 6MT guys?
-Temperature management modified.
Is this a good thing? I’ve hammered the car and never had problems with this on a road course. Maybe something bad is happening if you hot lap at the strip?
-Transmission coolant pump optimized during high temp scenarios.
Again, wtf is this, not sure I trust APR is doing something great here.
-Gear display enabled in Drive and Sport.
LOL at VCDS coding touted as a “feature” of your tune.
-Optimized Drive and Sport mode shift maps.
I never drive in D or S mode, but what does this mean? Did audi do the shift maps wrong or something?
Shift maps feel pretty similar to stock B8.5 shift maps. D mode is slightly more aggressive and pleasant; not shifting to 7th as obnoxiously early. S mode is maybe a hair more aggressive at holding gears as well. This is probably a bigger difference for B8 S mode, which was less aggressive
-Downshift “lockout” disabled below previous gear’s max RPM.
I thought they already changed the shift maps? That should implicitly fix this.
This is referring to manually downshifting. Before, downshifting to a lower gear would be locked out if your current speed would put you above a certain artificial RPM threshold. Now, it will downshift as long as you’re going to end up below redline
-First gear, rolling-stop, “clunk” addressed.
I don’t really get this, I think the B8.5 DSG is in general smoother, as it never goes to 1st gear while slowing down unless you ask for it.
Yup, I think this is more for B8s
-First gear “short shift” addressed.
Drag strip stuff, nice, but should be implicitly fixed by changing the shift maps.
Seems to be a bit redundant with other “features” like you said. Car definitely seems to be going to around 7k in first gear now though (hard to tell exactly, happens very fast), so that’s nice.
-Significant power increase on applications meeting peak power well above the vehicle’s factory defined shift points.
Same “feature” as the first one.

Thanks a lot for your feedback! This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping to find. Some of your replies intrigue me. I do like the idea of snappier shifts, whatever exactly that means. I test drove a f80 m3 with a dct and the adjustable shift setting was cool. Definitely appears I was confused with some points, so thanks for clearing things up lol ;D

I suppose Infinkc is right about returning it…I need to go there anyways to get my tune updated. The dealership is not close, probably about an hour from work and home.

The price tag seems a but much considering what the other more successful giac Tcu tune is at. That and it sounds like other then the short shifting most b8.5 guys are happy with what they have.

I don’t know of it’s your style but try hitting up a giac dealer and see if they will give you the Tcu tune. If that’s not an open. Door try sending todd@awe a text I see he signs in alot that would suggest awe is still very interested in the s4 guys. I think the you need to have giac ecu tune to get a giac Tcu tune stuff is nonsense. I think we all know any company can sell a TCU tune there isn’t some magic that is put in the ecu to make the Tcu only work with X or y tuning.

I would try to see if you can get a giac DSG tune. If giac says no that’s there loss of money. At that point just wait for a sale from APR. I know your wanting to get back to the track but it’s going to be hot the next few months so you wouldn’t even get the most out of the Tcu tune.

My experience with GIAC, AWE and my local giac dealer has been pretty bad. Always seemed like they need to contact each other and the total stg 2 + dsg price was ridiculous back when I was stock…something like 3,400 for everything :o I did the apr pulley install myself and it was around 1700 total. So I don’t really see the trio of dealer/giac/awe bending the rules to make it better than 1k :-\ . I don’t really want to be in an apr ecu/giac tcu tune situation anyways…I believe there is some communication between the ECM/TCU and mixing tuner special sauce sounds like a bad idea.

[justincredible]

If you had had a bad experience with giac then I would wait for the apr deal. Just as a fyi the R32 guys mix ecu and Tcu with no issues. I don’t see any reason why it would matter who you got the Tcu tune from. It’s just a ploy to get more money making you think giac or apr can’t be used.

In the end it’s a good point. No need being the test guy.