DL501 S-Tronic aftermarket clutch pack options

A5/S5/RS5
#41

Hi, new here, but i’ve been following for a while.

I have a 2013 FL 4.2 RS5 that’s been fitted with the PES supercharger and running around 600hp and 600nm torque. I’ve not changed anything else on the car and drove for about 12 months without issues and then… all sorts started…

All started from the stock “drive plate/flex plate” not being able to handle the torque and breaking.
This broke the Dual Mass flywheel, which broke the internals of the gearbox.

I replaced the gearbox… but was out of luck as it was broken from start… and some metal shavings got into my mechatronics… I replaced it again, this time it was good but needed to refurbish mecatronics, and still get 2nd and R error. Turned it it was the clutches that are slipping. In the refurbished gearbox they put some aftermarket, cheaper clutches, fine for stock, not fine for supercharged…

Now replacing clutches and hopefully story ends :slight_smile:

I’ve done a lot of research and seems the most viable options for clutches are:
OEM = around 1.2k EURO, supposed to handle max 800nm if you upgrade the TCU soft and increase the pressure.

Deca stage 2 = same price as OEM, supposed to handle 850nm stock, up to 1000nm with upgraded TCU software.

TVS has a race clutch, but it’s overkill, it’s 4k EURO and handles up to 1200nm. I’ve spoken to them on the phone, they don’t recommend using it for applications under at least 800-900 nm.

So, unless any of you had any other experience i think the best choice is to go with Deca stage 2, little better than OEM for same price.

Meanwhile, i have upgraded the clutch plate to one from an S7 which was a straight fit and the dual mass i replaced with JHM single mass flywheel (about 4kg lighter than dual mass). I balanced them together prior to putting them on.

I’ve spoken to TVS, it really seems they’re the expert in these transmissions… and i have a dealer of theirs locally (2hrs from me), i think after i install the new clutch, i’ll get their stage 2+ or 3 tune.

Any thoughts or suggestions welcome, or maybe this helps someone in future :slight_smile:

#42

First, welcome! Glad you found us here. Second, very sorry to hear of all your troubles. TVS does seem like a good company although I have no personal experience with them. Do they have a tune for a supercharged car? I thought their tunes were naturally aspirated only.

On the Deka clutch, I’m not sure what clutch plates he’s using to increase torque capacity. Almost everything out there is OE fitment, same torque rating whether it be Borg Warner or Exedy. Unless he’s having custom metal discs fitted with a higher coefficient of friction? I do know the S5/S6/S7 clutch discs, the outer discs I believe, are slightly larger in diameter. Wonder if they’d work with everything else you have?

Lastly, I just reached out to a friend who builds bulletproof R8/Huracan/Gallardo gearboxes and actually makes the billet clutch baskets for Deka. He’s in Austin, just up the road from me and I’ve known him for years. Going to see if we can source something to bridge the gap between stock and the TVS in terms of torque capacity.

While the OE clutches “can” hold 800Nm, it’s probably not ideal. They’re really rated at about 550Nm at normal clamping pressures.

We’d talked about a clutch a while back but both of us have been very busy with individual projects and with one mutual project, implementation of next gen carbon ceramic rotors for Audi and Lamborghini fitments.

#43

Thanks for fast reply.

TVS - i have a colleague in Australia who uses the TVS tune for a couple years now and is quite happy, he has a supercharged RS5 like mine. TVS doesn’t offer ecu tune, but TCU. It doesn’t matter if car is supercharged or not, they adjust the max NM limit, meaning that (per my understanding) the maximum clutch pressure is adjusted / increased so that the car can perform up to that torque without slipping. The stage 2+ does that up to 700nm, stage 3 yo 800nm. Supercharged cars don’t have as much torque as turbo cars, but have the torque lower down. Stock rs5 has 450 hp (realistically around 430), and 430nm torque. Supercharged have around 580-600hp and 580-600nm. So the 2+ stage should be more than sufficient. Especially as the extra hits you get with their stage 3 like launch control boost will not work on supercharger, only on turbo. The other big benefit to their tune (if claims are true but i have no reason to doubt) is that they increase the oil flow and further help the cooling as well as smoothen the gear shifts in D. Of course the extra transmission cooler is strongly recommended anyway.

As for deca, i was hoping for some advice as i could not find a lot of info online. I see their stage 1 and 2 differs in the number of plates. I’m trying to find out how many plates the stock OEM clutch has, do you know? Maybe their stage 2 has more (like it has more than stage 1) and by this, has a higher torque limit.

Stage 2:

6 x Large DCT® Heavy Duty Frictions Discs

7 x Small DCT® Heavy Duty Friction Discs

7 x Large DCT® Heavy Steel Discs

8 x Small DCT® Heavy Duty Steel Discs

Stage 1:

5 x Large DCT® Heavy Duty Frictions Discs

6 x Small DCT® Heavy Duty Friction Discs

6 x Large DCT® Heavy Duty Steel Discs

7 x Small DCT® Heavy Duty Steel Discs

Regarding the stock clutches and their max capacity. I’ve spoken to a few people and i know at least 4 rs5s with superchargers with around 600nm almost all running stock clutches without problem. That said you’re right that the 550nm rating is there but, and that’s the key, that’s the rating on stock TCU software with stock torque limits and clutch pressures. The 800nm torque limit on OEM clutches pertains to leaving stock plates but changing the TCU software to increase torque limits and clutch pressure.

If you look at tvs tune, differences between different stages you’ll notice that their 700nm stage 2 tune increases max clutch pressure to 14-15 bar. Meanwhile their stage 3 800nm moves that up to 18-19 bar.

By the way… if anyone is interested, as a side note, if your gearbox throws 2nd gear and R errors while driving slow or in park, it could be the clutch slipping. Way to diagnose is to monitor clutch pressures while shifting from N to D or while running adaptation. Pressure when it bites should be 2.4-2.5 bar. If it’s significantly more, means it’s slipping and TCU adjusts for that with more pressure. Mine was at 3.5-3.8 bar… Clutch gone. Typically the smaller clutch goes first, responsible for R, 2, 4, 6.

I have a colleague running the BW clutch without issues instead of getting it OEM from Audi, on his supercharged RS5. At this point trying to learn, as price is same, if it’s better to get the OEM / BW or the Deca clutch. I’d the Deca clutch is any better than the OEM … Hard to find any info unfortunately and Deca, while responsive, language barrier and tough to communicate.

Maybe if someone knows the nr of plates in OEM clutch we could deduce the answer from that (ish)?

Thanks!

#44

If i remeber correctly there are 6 small friction plates and 5 large .

1 Like
#45

My guy got back to me and yes, it’s possible to add more discs and this is what they do on the DL800 clutch packs (Huracan/R8). This’ll up the torque capacity without changing the amount of friction for each disc and help keep engagement smooth. No idea on what price would be but I can figure that out over the next few days.

Assuming the TVS stage 4 clutch is the entire unit, possibly a billet basket?

#46

Watch from approximately 05:30, shows aa nice view of all your clutch friction plates in a replacement pack.

#47

Based on Steve’s answer if the stock clutch has 6 small friction plates and 5 large, that’s the same as the stage 1 DCT, but the stage 2 has 1 more of each, which explains the larger torque capacity. The stage 2 DCT comes with its own basket and it’s thinner and shaped different to the stock one. I found some pictures online on another thread and someone saying they drove 1000miles and really vouched for it.

As for the tvs pack, yes comes with own basket but that’s a proper race only pack and much more expensive, around double the price of the DCT stage 2. TvS say it’s the most durable/powerful clutch on the market and they may be right as i didn’t find anything stronger. But it’s way overkill for my application as if I’m not mistaken it is rated up to 1400nm or so… I have 600, may go up to 700nm sometime max.

Thanks for your replies and help.

#48

I’m placing an order for the DCT stage 2… Read about DCT online and seems a legit company, meanwhile if i have to pay around usd1200 anyway as i checked the OEM prices, i may as well but the upgraded one.

#49

So are you saying you could up the discs, friction and steels on the oem clutches and this would be able to handle more torque ?

#50

Correct. Fairly common practice but the discs need to be shimmed correctly and it’s not something anyone can just do. And there are modifications to the clutch basket as well.

For any of Deka’s stuff, you can also ask the S6 community. I know a few people there who’ve used his stuff.

#51

He is legitimate. My friend in Austin owns the shop which makes his clutch baskets. I’ll work on getting something together here in the U.S. Kinda crazy we’re sending parts to Russia and then sending them back to the U.S.

#52

Some good comments on DCT on bmw forums too

#53

Oh wow I never knew that, that’s interesting.
You learn something new everyday and you my good man are like a book of knowledge !!

#54

I just ordered Deca Stage 2. Should have it in 2 weeks. I’ll take some photos and update you for future :slight_smile:

#55

That would be fab thanks. It will be good to know what the stage 2 deca is like to bed in and how it feels over all once it’s adapted.

#56

Clutch has been made and shipped. Should have it next week. Couple pics they sent me, looks quite nice :fire:

IMG-20210519-WA0001
IMG-20210519-WA00011280×960 170 KB

#57

IMG-20210519-WA0000
IMG-20210519-WA0000960×1280 154 KB

#58

Wow very nice! Did you have to send your old one in as an exchange?

Be sure to report back on how well it works out for you.

#59

No i didn’t. Just ordered the stage 2 DL501 (which based on all I’ve read can also be called 0B5, DSG, NSD…so I’m 99% sure it’ll fit my facelift 2013 rs5 :sweat_smile::crossed_fingers:)

They send the whole clutch packaged in upgraded casing. This is the stage 2 with up to 850nm torque capacity which if i understand correctly, with this clutch, can be fine without updating the TCU software… (stock without TCU update can survive up to 550nm and with TCU soft with increased clutch pressures up to 800nm) with TCU software adjusted to increase clutch pressure this one should last in excess of 1000nm.

At least that’s how I understand it…

I’ll report back with more photos and how it performs…

#60

How much was the cost?