"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

General Discussion
#1

First off I’m not anti-gun, or pro-gun. I frankly don’t give a fuck because I come from a place where guns are extremely rare, and I currently live in a place where gun violence is also extremely rare. Although I do live close to a place where guns and shootings are a way of life (America)…and I live near a city where guns and shootings are certainly an issue (although Toronto would look like a church compared to cities of its size in the US, gun wise). I just thought lots of the gun debates on telly this weekend were interesting. People seem too wrapped up in their constitution and video games and rock music etc.

This is pretty funny:
85 bullets were fired by German police in criminal pursuit/conflicts in 2011. 49 of those were warning shots. Population 82 million.

The pro-gun population will say all kinds of things about how this recent massacre was not because of guns, but was instead because he was crazy…or more extreme, that had there been MORE guns, he could have been stopped (i.e. teachers, principal should be wearing holstered pistols full time). A US member of the house of representatives actually said that yesterday. I agree, the tragedy was initiated because he was a mental. However the mental was so effective at wiping people out because he had some particularly adept tools to do his killing.

These rampages always get everyone’s attention, but to be honest they’re supernumerary in the grand sceme of things. In 2012 around 100 people will die in mass shooting rampages. One hundred times as many will die in normal, day to day shootings (10,000+).

While these arguments can go on all day, one need only look at the gun obsession and realise that a powerful weapon being widely owned means situations that in other countries might escalate to a fistfight, in America it is far more common for it to escalate to a shooting. Sure people die in fistfights or in stabbings.

The ratio of fistfight victims to fistfight deaths is nearly 1 in 100,000.
The ratio of stabbing victims to stabbing fatalities is about 1 out of 100.
The ratio of shooting victims to shooting deaths is about 1 out of 8.

Further, the ability of a gun to kill so quickly and effectively with range means the likelihood of a ‘multiple stabbing deaths’ incident are pretty rare…while multiple shooting deaths are far more common.

The problem is not gun control, as we now know that this connecticut maniac…like the Virginia Tech maniac and the Aurora Colorado maniac…used legally acquired guns to carry out his killings. All were registered. All were purchased legally. All were ‘regulated’ or ‘controlled’ guns. The problem is not a lack of regulation, rather the problem is this gun love. This love for guns that sees 50% of earth’s guns possessed by 5% of it’s population (America)…the gun is the escalator that turns bad situations into instant tragedies.

I don’t think you will ever solve that as it is so engrained in the population. So from that standpoint there is no hope for America on the matter of guns and killings.

#2

If psychopaths or mentally deranged people don’t have guns they will find other means to masacre people if they want. They will use cars, improvised explosives, etc. Laws only stop people that care about not breaking them. Point blank there is no solution to stopping mass killings anywhere in the world, whether it happens in a subway, a theatre or a coffee shop.

I am pro gun, but I also do no believe that everyone being armed is the best choice. We have discussed this before, but owning and especially carrying a gun requires a level of maturity and situational awareness that many Americans do not possess.

Lastly, who in their right mind gives someone with a mental condition that effects decision making ability and empathy access to the weapons he was carrying. Gun ownership comes with many responsibilities,unfortunately some people are careless or uneducated.

#3

True, but the thing I wanted to get across was that mass killings are really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Everyone will go nuts this week because of last Friday’s shooting…but reality is that that was 27 people in a crazy incident. Throw in the Sikh temple, and the Aurora Batman showing and a few others for good measure, and eliminate all of these. What’s left? 120x as many deaths as those all combined, just for 2012 alone. Mass killings aren’t a big deal in reality. They’re just big on CNN.

12,000 other gun murders, many of which were situations which escalated from conflict to violence to murder via gun…that’s what to me is the far more interesting statistic.

p.s. your comment about ‘crazy people will find other ways’ is very legit. However the grand majority of the gun killings in the US are committed by otherwise sane or ‘normal’ people, not the weirdo lunatic social retards like this kid last week or the Columbine or Batman killers.

#4

It would take a lot fix it on that side of the issue. I don’t think the issue is that it is too easy to legally obtain firearms. People will still find a way to get a gun, especially three mass killers that have a reason to use them. I used to work at a pizza place and I live ear Chicago, and I can tel you that it’s not hard to get a gun illegally. Makes them illegal all you want, and put whatever restrictions you want to on them, It won’t help anything.

These mass killings are a result of flaws in our society. I think the US is the most fucked up overall in terms of that. The amount of depression, and stress people face here is ridiculous. There’s people having a hard time everywhere you go.

The one thing I think we can do is somehow restrict what the mass media can say when these things happen. But this is america, and you can’t take away people’s rights or they get livid. Take away the fame that these killers gain, and I think half your problem is gone. I don’t think we know the motives of the Oregon shooter at this point, but I’m sure he had nothing agains those 20 young kids that he killed. It was something else and he was in some way trying to make a point. So he carried out something that would draw massive attention from the media, making him famous, and making a point. Take away the media and keep these things quiet and it’s no longer a competition amongst killers.

#5

Obligatory Chris Rock reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

A breakdown of the numbers: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20759139

I personally just don’t get the whole gun thing. Wasn’t the 2nd amendment designed as a guard against those pesky redcoats rolling over the hill to colonise America once more? Having said that, there’s no way you can change the status quo. It’s just part of life in the USA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/dec/17/how-many-ar15-rifles-sold

[quote]“Assault weapons were banned in 1994 but the ban expired in 2004”
[/quote]
Edit, more interesting gun stats: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/16/americas-deadly-devotion-guns

[quote]It is also an important component of something else that is central to American society: capitalism. Guns make money. A lot of it. Since 1990 the sale of legal guns alone has come to, on average, about $3.5bn every year. And it is recession-proof, rising and falling less with the economic tide than the electoral one. When Democrats are elected the sales go up. And when a black Democrat is elected, they skyrocket. The week Barack Obama was elected gun sales leapt 50% against the previous year. And they have continued to rise sharply.
[/quote]

#6

I definitely see your point that you were trying to get across and your statistics are very interesting. I haven’t really researched the issue, but by looking at the numbers you provided it paints a different picture. I also agree that mass murders aren’t the true issue at hand and it’s almost sickening how news agencies and politicians use tragedies like this to influence law.

I did say that crazy people will find a way, but I also said that people chose to follow the law, perfectly sane people can break the law for whatever reason. I wouldn’t call a person who chooses to kill another person NORMAL…that is kind of an unfair stretch. Like I previously stated, it all boils down to responsible gun owners, but that is like responsible drinking and responsible driving.

#7

^^Great point - I wonder how the death rate from “crazies with guns” compares to “drunk drivers”?

#8

True, however it is much easier and convenient to get a gun and cause massive amounts of damage. Every human is mentally ill, its just how severe and how they cope with those internal demons. Human nature, each individual has their own limits, some much less than others.

Edit, more interesting gun stats: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/16/americas-deadly-devotion-guns

[quote]It is also an important component of something else that is central to American society: capitalism. Guns make money. A lot of it. Since 1990 the sale of legal guns alone has come to, on average, about $3.5bn every year. And it is recession-proof, rising and falling less with the economic tide than the electoral one. When Democrats are elected the sales go up. And when a black Democrat is elected, they skyrocket. The week Barack Obama was elected gun sales leapt 50% against the previous year. And they have continued to rise sharply.
[/quote]

[/quote]
The chris rock shit…ROFL! too good

#9

http://www.adisc.org/forum/attachments/off-topic/13524d1343531455-right-arm-bears-right-bear-arms-demotivational-poster-1288917337.jpg

#10

Having been on the giving AND receiving end of flying bullets (War in Croatia) Im personally not too keen on guns. I dont have any interest in them, i don’t own any. I dont give a fuck either way.

My problem is more the being controlled by the government. Stop telling me what i can and ant do in the “free” world.

Its like motorcycle helmet / seat belt laws.

The only time i drove my bike without a helmet was ONCE in NH on my way to Laconia. Rode for about 30 minutes until i pulled over and put it back on. On a speed bike doing 6-70 MPH with no helmet is not just scary… mosquitoes hitting your forehead feel like 3/4" gravel pieces!!!

Is it dangerous to ride without one? Fucking right it is… Do we need a law for it? NO!

Let fucktards ride without helmets and kill themselves… One less retard in this world. Same goes for seat belt laws.

The following expresses how i feel about all these controlling laws, and what the outcome could be.

Let natural selection take its course!

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Matt/A-natural-disaster-is-headed-right-for-us!-Quick,-grab-the-camera!.png

#11

I love that bit in Family Guy lol.

Regarding helmets and bikes, whether you need a law or not depends on how your healthcare system is funded. If it’s publicly funded like here in Canada or in the UK, then you definitely need a helmet law. If you fall off and die, that’s ok. It’s those with severe brain damage. They’re a long term drain on healthcare cash and therefore the taxpayer. Cynical but true.

Having said that, there’s no easy way of preventing neck injuries though.

I’m not sure about Canada, but there have been cost-benefit analyses in the UK and kids can get free helmets for their push bikes as that was cheaper than however many brain damaged kids could be prevented by one helmet. Same thing with condoms - free condoms for all!

Going back to booze related/driving deaths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_in_the_United_States#Statistics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides

So around 18,000 people died in 2006 in alcohol related collisions according to the NHTSA.
And around 10,000 people were killed by a firearm in 2005.

Another interesting stat regarding firearm homicide rate:

  • US: 3 intentional homicides per 100,000 people (In the US there are 70 million guns in pop of 300mil)
  • Switzerland: 1 per 250,000 (1-3 million guns in a pop of 8 million!)

Sure it’s a bunch of wikipedia stats, likely flawed. Not sure how this contributes to the thread, but interesting nonetheless. Here’s an Australian drink drive commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b69J_bMoYk

#12

Life in America would certainly be “interesting” if the bad guys with guns outnumbered the good guys with guns. And that’s exactly what’d happen if the second amendment went away. As it stands, good, level headed armed Americans prevent crimes from happening every day. Police primarily RESPOND to crime. Nobody pulls out a gun in Florida because everybody has one.

#13

This ^

+1

#14

Nobody pulls a gun where I live because nobody has one…

#15

I find gun ownership and gun rights to be a very complicated issue that I can never argue satisfactorily. I own guns. I legally carry a pistol virtually every day that I can. I enjoy target shooting, and have been hunting a time or two. I would say I have more training than most in various types of weapons and I have no qualms about owning guns and don’t have a problem, generally, with others owning guns.

All of that being said, I have a big problem with how readily available guns are to individuals who should not be allowed a sharp stick never mind a gun. This is partly where I find the debate becomes difficult for me. Guns are definitely too easy to come by. I would have no issue with longer waiting periods and extensive background checks. Gun registration isn’t a terrible idea. But it doesn’t seem to me that any of this will really fix the problem.

I honestly believe that the biggest problem we have is that violence and specifically gun violence has become so popularized and normalized by the media, movies, entertainment, and video games that we have created people who are not afraid to kill. Killing has become easy. And not simply because they have a gun.

If you look at killing in history, most soldiers historically would not kill anyone even during war time. Many wouldn’t even fire their weapons at all. And those who did would purposefully aim to miss their foes. Most people have a severe revulsion to killing, which is a natural reaction. It is only when you get passed this revulsion to killing either by training, learned behavior, exposure, or mental defect… only then can you readily and easily take ANY weapon and kill another person. The US military all but perfected this type of training and behavior modification during the Vietnam years, and it came at a massive price for the soldiers and society of that time. I don’t know that the reputation of the military has yet recovered from that hugely unpopular war. Our veterans paid for that war in ways that most of us would never be able to comprehend because of the toll of repeatedly having to overcome their natural human revulsion to killing.

To kill at the range this person did in CT, he had absolutely no revulsion or qualms about killing, and from what I have heard it was probably due to mental defect. He more than likely would have killed with or without a gun. He shot those poor, innocent children at almost point blank range. Shooting someone at that range has a level of intimacy which all but negates the “distance” effect that gun control advocates use to argue why guns are so influential in promoting murder.

I think people need to change. I think that our society has to change. This infatuation with guns and violence is an epidemic that seems to be spreading at a terrible rate and with devastating consequences. Guns have been in homes for many many years, and have been a part of American life since colonization. Why are we only recently seeing gun violence so prevalent in this civilized society? Is it actually more prevalent or is it just that we hear about it more quickly and more often because of how quickly news and information travel now?

People are the problem, not guns. BUT, guns do make it easier.

#16

lol

You need to read the news maybe. Or just watch an episode of “first 48’”

#17

Great post…lots o Good insight.

Noam Chomsky talks about how we are systematically desensitized from young age to accept death. We should vomit at seeing someone die, but reality is that we don’t even blink. By the time we are ten years old we have seen thousands of dead bodies .

As to the whole more happening lately, it is just the same as it always has been. This year feels particularly bad though, but in all likelihood that is just an anomaly. Reversion to the mean will see us have a couple of slow years, like the years before 2012 or those immediately after.

#18

I don’t know. We live in what is historically a rediculously peaceful time and place. Your odds of meeting a violent end in (insert modern developed nation here) are mere fractions of what would have been the norm over most of human history. Actually this even applies globally. Our forebearers would have had a much more familiar connection to death and violent death.

#19

I won’t pretend to know if what you are saying is accurate or not. I have not personally seen information to specifically support or refute it.

My position is not that people now are exposed to violence in person, the exposure is through media, TV, movies, games, etc.

But, for arguments sake, let’s assume you are right. Maybe personal experience with violence was more common back then. However, it would seem the “forebearers” just did not have this general callousness for whatever reasons. I would still say the exposure to violence and death now is exponentially more, but different. Now, children are exposed to extremely graphic violence at a very early age in many other ways that were not factors before. Not necessarily on a personal blood and flesh level, but the effect can actually be more anesthetizing because it allows for a detached sense of reality related to the act of killing and extreme violence, making it again easier to kill/hurt someone because it has the feeling of the surreal. It is easier to remove the personalization and intimacy of the act. It could be argued that the fact our ancestors had a more intimate relationship with whatever violence or killing they did experience, this is why senseless killings and needless violence may have been less common (I’m talking about the actual number of occurrences, not the number of people with personal experience.) When you can separate yourself from the object you are hurting or killing, when you don’t feel a kinship or don’t identify with the humanity of the target, it makes things much much easier. Personal experiences may have been more common, but the the act was not glamorized or perpetuated as it is now.

I would also speculate that the majority of the extreme violence and killing done years ago was done by a very small minority. Now we are seeing every Tom, Dick, and Harry taking to violence for whatever problems they have. And it is a fact that the military forces of our world have become unbelievably more efficient and proficient at killing. It is much easier to get an 18-24 year old to kill someone now than it was years ago.

I’m not asserting myself as an authority on this subject by any means, so please don’t misconstrue my intentions. These are mostly just my thoughts and opinions.

#20

Interesting article from Forbes. http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/02/21/disarming-the-myths-promoted-by-the-gun-control-lobby/