Having lots of timing problems

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

Hey guys, I was advised to start a thread here to see if anyone can help me get some timing issues I’m having with my car sorted out. This is going to be a long post but here it goes:
In December I pulled my motor to install a set of JHM headers, ported intake manifold, the updated JHM tune with the header file, and a Clutch Masters FX400 with their billet flywheel along with a few other things.

Here’s all of the engine/performance mods I have on my car:
JHM Headers
Ported intake manifold/throttle body
Intake spacers
JHM tune
CM FX 400 w/ lwfw
FI res catback
JHM Pulley

I basically have a full bolt on car.

The Problem:

My car’s pulling so much timing its running in a soft limp mode. Basically from low rpm’s up until ~5k it’s a dog. After 5k the car pulls strong with no hesitation or feeling that it’s being “held back.” I’ve sent several rounds of logs back and forth to JHM and we’ve found that it’s a mechanical/electrical problem. The car is pulling so much timing that when starting the pulls in 3rd gear it knocks like crazy at low rpm. I did a complete scan of the car with vag com last night and this is the only code I’m getting:

1 Fault Found:
16711 - Knock Sensor 1 (G61): Signal too Low P0327 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

I’ve been going back and forth with JHM’s tech support to try and figure out whats the issue and so far we have couple theories:

One is that the tone ring on the flywheel is out of balance and causing the car to run like crap. But, I’m almost positive that this is not the case for several reasons. I haven’t had any weird vibrations through the rev band or clutch chatter, etc. The clutch engages great—it feels like stock. I think if it were the flywheel then all or at least more than one knock sensor would be throwing codes. But it’s literally this same one that keeps throwing codes every time. I haven’t had a single code thrown for anything else so far.

The other problem could be that the knock sensor itself, which I’ll be replacing soon. But from what I understand the sensors generally don’t go “bad.”

Does anyone have any advice as to what else could be the culprit? Or what else I can look into?

I just purchased a vag com so to be honest I don’t really know how to use it to its full potential quite yet. I’m not really sure what blocks measure what, but I do know how to take logs. I still haven’t really figured out how to display/organize the data in excel neatly. Because I don’t really know how to interpret it all that well just yet I don’t want to skew any of the data. If anyone knows of a good resource that’ll walk me through some of the functions it would be greatly appreciated.

Again sorry for the long post, just want to tell the complete story.

#2

well here’s a good resource, but it takes a while to read through it all

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/main_screen.html

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Fault_Codes

Did JHM have you log the knock sensor voltage on that particular sensor? It would seem that if the signal is too low, that it may not be recording any voltage? I’d log the voltage of the knock sensors and see if one doesn’t register any voltage.

Also, direct from Rosstech:

[quote]16711/P0327 - Knock Sensor 1 (G61): Signal Too Low
Possible Symptoms

Irregular rpm
Drivability problems
Loss of power
Engine damage

Possible Causes

[b]Circuit G61 short to Ground
Circuit G61 open[/b]
G61 improperly torqued
G61 damaged
Control Module damaged

Possible Solutions

Torque Knock Sensor 1 (G61) to specifications.

Check wiring and connections
Check Knock Sensor 1 (G61) and Knock Control

Special Notes

This feature search for unusual (spontaneous) combustion. The sensor detects unusual vibrations and based on that it generates a voltage. Is this voltage outside a certain limit a dtc will be set.

[/quote]
I’m gonna guess that somewhere from the ECU to the sensor the wiring for one of the knock sensors is damaged, logging the knock sensor voltage will let you find which one isn’t registering any voltage.

To log voltage, go here to find the measuring vlocks:
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

You’ll want to go into the 020-029 Group for Knock Control, blocks 026 and 027 measure the actual knock sensor voltage. So if you know how to log the standard 3rd gear pull it will be similar but use blocks 003, 020 and 026 and then use blocks 003, 021, 027 in a separate pull. That way you get load, ignition timing retard and knock sensor voltage for each cylinder bank separately. If you grab those two pulls (3rd gear will work better because of the longer measuring time and higher load, do 1200rpm-7200rpm so there will be a full range) and then email them to me at beemercer@wpi.edu I will make a few diagrams for everyone to look over.

#3

Here’s another good reference for the 8E S4 owners

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Audi_A4/S4/RS4/Cabriolet_(8E/8H)

#4

You came to the right place.

Great information. There is never such a thing as too much information when looking to tell others what’s wrong.

As a starting point, when you get codes like you have. That’s a great place to start looking. While I agree that knock sensors don’t generally go bad, they could be damaged. A low Signal is giving the car a false reading and could be enough to put the car in a soft limp mode.

Saying the car picks up after 5000rpm is helpfull becuase the knock sensors reset at 5000rpm and I believe the cars reaction to knock goes down with RPM as well.

So I would suggest replacment of the knock sensor 1. Before you replace it I would check and make sure it has no wire issues that may have popped up on the install. The code your giveing is one that generally goes with a bad wire connection or a bad signal more so then a bad knock sensor it self.

The other thing you mentioned was the flywheel. The flywheel tone ring is a ver plausable idea, due to the fact that its a clutch masters. They have been known to have flywheel issues with the imports for a long time. If you do a search there not the clutch of choice for lots of people.

The tone ring has nothing to do with the actual clutch or the function of the clutch. So your not going to experence a issue. The tone ring is the ring attached to the flywheel. Its function is only to tell the car when its at DTC. With all the issues I’ve heard from CM this wouldn’t be out of the question that this could be part of the issue as well.

I would start with the knock sensor and then go from there.

#5

damn, just realized that the ECU already identified which sensor was registering no voltage lol… I’d check the continuity of the wiring if you can and then replace the sensor.

#6

If you pulled the motor to do the headers you most likely had to dissconect these wires. They could have gotten streatched.

Before I would do anything. I would unplug the suspect knock sensor and then go back and see if you get a new code in vag com. You should get a short to ground or short to pluss. This will be helpfull to you becuase it will tell you more if there is any damage to the wire Vs damage to the sensor

#7

Beem, I have logs of those blocks already. I emailed them to you just now.

If it was the tone ring wouldn’t there be other symptoms like a weird vibration?
Before I order the sensor what I did today was unplug what I believe is knock sensor #1 (according to the Bentley) and drove around a bit while scanning for codes. What happened is kind of weird, these are the codes I got:
[b]2 Faults Found:

16711 - Knock Sensor 1 (G61): Signal too Low

    P0327 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

16716 - Knock Sensor 2 (G66): Signal too Low

    P0332 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded[/b]

Maybe I disconnected the wrong one? What’s throwing me off more is even though I haven’t driven the car in a few days it seemed to pull much smoother through the rev band. I’ll double check the Bentley manual to make sure I disconnected the right sensor and try the same thing again later tonight/ tomorrow….I have huge hands and even after driving for a few mins I feel like I could cook a steak in that engine bay, so I’ll let the car cool off for a while.

Thanks for a the help guys, I really appreciate it.

#8

This is one of the great parts of this site. Take a picture of the sensor you unplugged load it up on the site and we can help identify if you did in fact unplug the sensor two. You might have unplugged the sensor on Bank 2 not sensor 2.

As for the tone ring on the flywheel. No you wont feel anything, that is what makes it tricky. Some cars run slow due to having the tone ring set wrong and the car isn’t giving the spark at the proper time. There is no feel as the tone ring is just a reference to the ECU when to fire the spark charge. If the tone ring is off you wont “feel” anything.

#9

I have the Bentley manual via alldatadiy.com. This is the diagram I followed:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1043/picture12ho.png

2 - Knock Sensor (KS) 1 -G61-
3 - Knock Sensor (KS) 2 -G66
6 - Knock sensor 3 -G198-
7 - Knock sensor 4 -G199-
I pulled the sensor to the farthest left in front of the intake manifold–It’s the one to the left of the purple connector.(#3 according to the diagram) According to the website this one is sensor #1. (The original one that was throwing the code) After plugging it back in and driving around the car is without a doubt “slower” and less smooth throughout the RPM band with it plugged back in. Without pulling off the intake manifold it didn’t seem like there was anything wrong with the connection. I’ll have time to pull the intake manifold probably next weekend to give it a better look.

In the meantime does it still make sense to go ahead and order sensor #1 to replace? or should I hold off? I can get it for ~45 dollars from genuineaudiparts.com. Only thing is that it will probably take about a week to get it. Hopefully when beemercer gets a chance he can post the graphs of the logs JHM had me send. \

edit: Just realized the image from alldatadiy.com was displaying a different diagram each time, so I fixed it.

#10

Something definitely seems odd.

You pulled the connector for what should have been sensor 1 and you got a code for sensor 2. I would make note of this and disconnect the other sensors in order, then wait to get the Code for them per there sensor number. At this point there might be something off in the wires.

Here is my thought. You already have sensor 1 not working. The sensor seems like its not giving a signal back to the ecu. To confirm this. disconnect another sensor, you want to see the same code for say sensor 4 (disconnected) as you do for sensor 1. If you disconnect sensor 4 and you get the same code your getting for sensor 1 that will tell you for sure that even tho sensor 1 is plugged in its not doing anything more then it would be if it was unplugged.

At this point. I would not get another sensor. Track down and do what I suggested and lets see what code pops up.

I think its important to do this test because you disconnected what should have been sensor 1 and you got a code for sensor 2. If you ask me, there is a electrical issue somewhere, and your going to need to track it back.

#11

I managed to get one of the logs open and the data out of it, the other ones got corrupted and put all of the data into one cell so it may take longer to get anything from those. I’ll post the graphs later but something is definitely not running right, timing retard is 15* all the way through the rev band and the RPM/sec is only 401. I’ll try to extract the knock sensor voltages tonight.

#12

yes the good thing is the timing retard. The timing is beyond 15deg pulling but that is what I Set the sample limit for in vag-com.

So the tune is doing what its programmed to do. Its just finding what its reacting to. The knock sensor issue is giving me a few things to think about. The fact that noznab you disconnected what should have been sensor 1 and you got a code for sensor 2. Is something seriously an issue for me. At this point I feel quite comfortable that its a sensor issue that is not with in limits and the ECU is in safe mode. Now the issue is getting the knock sensor issue sorted threw and moving on.

Great work so far everyone, lets keep this going and make sure we get noznab and his car up and on the road 100% soon.

#13

Let me know if you want me to resend anything. Not sure why any of the data would be corrupted.

Today I unplugged each individual sensor at a time, drove checked the codes, cleared them, plugged the first sensor back in and did the same for sensors #2 and 3. I didn’t unplug #4 because the clip to unplug it was rotated on the bottom, and I would’ve melted my guerilla hands trying to squeeze them into the hot engine bay—I think sensor #3 and 4 are fine anyway.

I again got some really, really weird results scanning the car:

With sensor #1 disconnected:
1 Fault Found:
16716 - Knock Sensor 2 (G66): Signal too Low
P0332 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

Codes cleared, Knock sensor #2 pulled (purple)
1 Fault Found:
16711 - Knock Sensor 1 (G61): Signal too Low
P0327 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

^^Codes cleared, knock sensor #3 Pulled (purple)

1 Fault Found:
17731 - Knock Sensor 4 (G199): Signal too Small
P1323 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded

After I pulled the first plug I inspected the connection inside, blew into it for good measure (Nintendo NES game cartridge style) and plugged it back in. After reading the codes from the first two sensors I pulled I was wondering if it was possible for two of the sensor wires to have been crossed, but they’re not. Knock sensor #2 has a purple plug, and sure enough it’s plugged into the other purple end.

Everything is reconnected now, and I have no codes whatsoever. I drove around for ~10 mins and the car seems like it’s running strong

I’m confused as hell.

I’m not convinced that these problems could’ve been fixed this easily.

What logs should I run to evaluate what’s going on now?

#14

^the data got kinda messed up because the files gos saved as “log-0xx-x0x0-timing.csvtiming”… with the extra words at the end of the file extension it messed up the formatting and sucked everything into one cell.

As long as you don’t have codes try logging 003, 020, 026 all together in one pull and then 003, 021, 027 in another. Hopefully you’re RPM/sec will bump back up.

#15

Well Im not super mechanic but if you dissconnected the plug for sensor 1 and you got a sensor 2 code thats not good. There is something wrong for sure. Maybe the wires back up at the ECU are crossed. I would valadate that sensor 1 is sensor 1. At this time it would seem there is something off in the wires.

My take on this would be that the car expects to see one kind of activity from sensor 1 and another kind of activity out of sensor 2. Having them swapped could be the issue if the sensor 2 is more sensitive.

At the very least lets make sure sensor 1 is what your unpluging.

1 Like
#16

Thats the thing though, I disconnected the sensors individually when I was checking for codes and now the car is running better than it ever did. It doesn’t feel like there’s any timing being pulled. No codes are popping up anymore either. I almost want to say my car is “fixed” now, but I can’t figure out why.

Nothing was disconnected, and nothing was crossed. All of the connections were tight. The clips gave their usual “click” when the tab is unlocked, etc.

I’m kind of at a loss right now.

I’m going to take some logs later and host them up here.

#17

this is great to hear. I would still say lets get some logs and just double check on this sensor thing. Chances are there is something going on there. Can you take a picture of your actual car and the sensor clips just for reference. I know you posted a great diagram but Im still not sure why your getting the fault for sensor 2 when you unplug sensor 1.

While your car might be running fine the way it is now. We really should look into getting the proper knock sensor located to the proper channel, if its not already.

#18

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/844403282.jpg

stuff from one of the logs, and I know 15* is the sample limit so it could be even more

#19

The graph looks great. Im not sure what Im looking at but it looks nice.

#20

It’s not about the graphs, something is wrong.

Get some new logs now that you feel the car running better, and lets see if anything changed.

Great work beemercer!