would be cool to measure the effect of the bends vs. the improved density to see if ER’s are a winner
well…cool is the wrong word lol
One test of ER’s, not against AWE, but you get the idea.
http://www.myaudis4.com/amd-ic-flow-test/
Apikol’s are the same size wise but flow better.
OMG the B5 guys are like 50years behind the curve. What dumb ass thinks a flowbentch is what you want. Frist off I would be willing to wager that who ever did that test was in bed with AMD… Just a thought second you don’t want the IC that flows the best you want the IC that cools the best the two don’t generally or in principle go hand in hand. Fact of the matter is the pressure drop is a bad thing. You want to keep pressure and you want to have exposure to fins. You want to see a little restriction due to the air not just passing threw the unit. Air passing threw a unit dropping in pressure for cooling is a complete waste. Apparently the B5 rocket scientists are not smart enough to see that point.
WOW what a joke. here is a good way to get no pressure drop and flow better. Just take out the IC all together and get a pipe that goes from the turbo right to the throttle body. WOW no wonder the B5 is taking steps backwards
Wow, that was an angry post.
The background to the flow testing was that some of the top end IC’s were having difficulty achieving 40psi at the IM, it was deduced that some IC’s flow better than others, the independent member setup and performed these tests on his own.
We are all very aware that the best IC is not the one which flows the most or the one that reduces charge air temp the most, but the one that is a balance of the 2 of them.
Note that most people following along with the IC testing are also utilizing w/m in their builds, thus further reducing the need for some of the IC cooling.
The B5 S4 community is not going backwards, many of us are just watching the freak show like the rest of you
The B5 community is arguably going backwards. I mean, what progress has been made in the past 4 years?
The only progress has been a weakening of the standard of proof on results claimed by the tuners and vendors. Everyone lives and dies by the dyno sheet now…and the in theory “leading” tuner company of the past few years, epl, has accomplished great things in the eyes of the masses. But…what have they really accomplished? Great dyno results on their own dyno.
Anyway, the platform needs a renaissance and hopefully JHM getting back at it and new companies like jfonz having good results can give the B5 its second wind.
Angry because it is a freak show and the platform is moving backwards. The only real advancement in the past 4 years was a VR6 motor car.
A simple understanding of how a turbo system works would tell you that the restriction is in the throttle body and not the IC. Even look to the not too much higher in hp RS4. Its not hard to do the math and calculate the area to find the end result that points to the throttle body like a big red dot.
This furthers my rant on just how stupid the B5 community is getting. No home work or thought into how stuff works just a bunch of wasted tests on empty conclusions.
The throttle body issue has been addressed, there are many using RS4 IM’s and TB’s or even increased plenum IM’s with 80mm Hemi TB’s.
I do agree that things aren’t moving forward as quickly as they were 5-6 years ago, but that is to be expected as most of these cars are now owned by people with less disposable income.
I have no stake in the game, just a casual observer, on occasion I do like to go on AZ and call out the whiny brats in the B5 S4 forum as well
I think that you should stop complaining and do some homework yourself. Then make a thread with your results so that you can show the community your conclusions. Don’t tell us what we should be doing. Do it yourself and post proof and if you aren’t moved by the b5 movement, you shouldn’t be waisting your rant.
when will this lemon be turned into lemonade?
I hear you and agree. However little to no money or not. There isn’t a hard case to know what works and what dosen’t. If you have less money you would think that people would do more research… Not pushing on you just myself a observer that has seen severe failures in modification platforms over the years.
son I understand you point but there is so much data out there and. Inter cooling isn’t something that came out last week. There is a rock-solid way to do it. There are do and don’t points that get addressed. The best part is you don’t need to look much further then math and actual data. The issue Im looking and laughing at is. Some of this stuff is day one stuff that 12 years later these guys haven’t figured it out.
Now let me give credit where its due. There are some kits out there that might need to have a different approach to inter cooling due to heat and power. even still looking at the data they took is useless.
There is a MAX hp limit and calculation for hp under the curve. If you can make 550whp for 3500rpm or 700whp for 800rpm its clear what one is going to produce better real world results. Still you get kids looking to make more hp and not realizing that more hp at some point pays off with less area and less actual performance.
I know vast was helping test fit the apikal several years ago and I know that they flowed the best and had one of the biggest cores. I also know that they didnt cool any better then stock ko3 intercoolers and they were the worst on heat soak. I know vast was getting them for cheap as that was when we were building my b5 at teh tiem. while I know apikal is sure to want to put good data out there. I have to agree the fact that they flow better is just a good case to not get them. Real data last I checked was you were better off with oem stock intercoolers then the way bigger better flowing apikals…
in the land of cooling I have to agree with flowtech. a good core grabs the air and trapps it into a pattern that forces it to take as much time to travel across the fins. while a pressure drop can result in tempiture drop due to the lack of pressure the heat released from the drop still stays in the system.
in short flowhing better isn’t what needs to be last on your list but when you looking at thesde units and the data the better flowing unit is the unit that you don’t want. clearly that isn’t gouing to be the case when you compair it to other units but for the sake of ER apikal that is.
So stock is better than big ass aftermarket but you call dxc names for having stock on his rs6-x car?
Now i am finally confused. BTW, flowtech and Chris, you sound like the same person.
dude its no joke. The aplcals they did terrible. Size has nothing to do with how good a unit works. If the unit isn’t trapping any air and isn’t putting flow past the fins then what is the point/ 90% of how good a IC unit is relates to the core and its ability to toutch air. A quick flowing uynit isn’t nessessnarly toutching the air. Not only that but you can have a big ass intercooler coore the size of a speaker and that isn’t going to mean it can cool or even that it will. Think about it. if you have 20feet of tube is that going to mean that you are going to inetivibly cool the charge down… Don’t hate flowtech he is a gm guy just like me we go way back we were laughing at the test and the results.
what does dxc taking a jhm turbo and sending it to china only to then call it his have to do with theis thread
I do remember hearing that the Apikol’s size and core were not delivering. This was two or three years ago tho.
The test above isn’t helpful to the real story, I don’t think it was meant to be more then a flow test. Still the kids on Audizine don’t know better and they will think more flow will result in more power. That isn’t true. This is why we have things such as the duel pass core. This is also why nowadays the B5 guys struggle to get out of the 12s.
I would just like to add that this is one more example of what I stated. The B5 community is moving backwards.
In short. The issue is that a bigger core and bigger flow isn’t what your looking for and indeed isn’t the formula for bigger results.
Why is DxC even relevant???
Pretty sure they said stock ic was better than the terrible Apikol unit. They never once said stock was better than everything. Anyone doing a proper stage three builds tends to address the major elements…not leave them stock while showcasing their invention lol.
Stock exhaust is better than a big exhaust that falls off after seven miles because the hanger mounts are made of wax. Does that mean everyone should stay stock? By your DxC rationale they should. Stock turbos are better than big turbos that lag till 6600 then only hit 14 lbs of boost. Nobody would fault.you for avoiding that big turbo…but that doesn’t mean the k03 is fine for stage three.
First paragraph I am totally with you. I actually intentionally run an intercooler style that doesn’t catch the air as you put it internally as much.
Last sentence, its because I can’t keep up with who thinks what here anymore. It’s like a sliding scale of standards in the mechanical sense based on who or what we are talking about.
Wait, this is my rationale now? Apikols, er, amd, whatevers are made for high boost continuous duty cycle usage. I always liked awe intercoolers. All mentioned work good. Much better than stock.
This page of this thread has me so confused and so I will take a chance at me being wrong about my understanding of the above posts. It just sounded like guys were haveing a back and forth about how dumb Adam and s4 owners in general are because they are putting big ic cores on thier cars.
No man, what happened was
- someone mentioned the shape of piping on the ER intercooler and asked if it was a negative, or just necessary due to space (that was me…i honestly had no idea)
- someone else posted a link to a ‘test’ that showed certain findings relating to intercoolers
- someone else still said that this ‘test’ was poorly thought out
- someone else again agreed and said that for example the apikol/VAST unit was big, and flowed well (two key features mentioned in that ‘test’) but in the real world it performed like shit
Basically guys (flowtech, chrisK) were saying that bigger and great flow does not a great intercooler make. There is much more to it, and that makes sense.
Then you came along, thought they were saying big intercoolers don’t work (they never said that), and to question them you brought up how DxC was mocked for having stock intercoolers on his RS6x car.
They never mentioned his intercoolers in the DxC RS6R discussion for the record. That was me…as I thought it was insane that David Chang, the ‘inventor’ of all things great, wouldn’t have a stage III car that was properly modified…rather he has a patchwork half-assed build with stock intercoolers, and a tune from OEM RS6 turbo kits of yore.
Clear now?
To quote from above.
“Real data last I checked was you were better off with oem stock intercoolers than the way bigger better flowing apikals…”
As for the comparison to the other thread, wasn’t just you. Not directly, not infered.
This slippery sideways talk is not working for communication at all.
I will refrain from this talk. You guys have at it.
Adams car is looking good, even with less than ideal bends I am sure it will be awesome once finished.
Exactly…the Apikols. he didn’t say 'Stock Intercoolers are better than Evolution Racewerks and JHM and every other option"
he said 'better than Apikol.
From that, you said "It just sounded like guys were haveing a back and forth about how dumb Adam and s4 owners in general are because they are putting big ic cores on thier cars. "
They never said that. They said the Apikols sucked when you actually tested them. Bigger doesn’t mean fuck all if it works worse than stock.