Help - Fault Codes

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

Gentlemen… And Ladies

A horrible way to introduce myself, instantly asking for assistance. I was advised to post my questions on this site as I am reliably informed that the more technical hang out on here as opposed to Audizine.

So, I apologise for this introduction, but ask for help. Some of you may know me as I am on quite a few of the Audi Sites and use the same user name “JimGreen” and on Audizine I have been covering my timing chain rebuild. But now have come up with an issue now were back up and running.

I’ve just had a full timing chain/tensioner/guides/adjusters (Totally Everything, identical to JHM’s Full Plus Kit) overhaul done, but when the tech took the car for a run once he’d replaced the engine, he stated it pulls well and sounds fine, but he did notice a slight hesitation from on - off - on throttle and the engine doesn’t run as smoothly at idle as it used too. For the first 15 - 20 seconds after start up it runs really smoothly, but then runs not as smooth as normal (Not really bad, but certainly not as smooth as it should be).

So… He used VAGCOM and checked for any codes and these two came up - The car was code free prior to the rebuild :

16405 bank 2 camshaft a (intake) p0021-002 retard setpoint not reached (over advanced) mil

on and the other

16395 Bank 1 p0011-002 retard setpoint not reached over advanced mil on.

Having diagnosed exactly what the codes meant and knowing that these codes suggested the cams were over advanced and not timed correctly, he had put the car back on the ramp, locked the crank using the Audi Crank Locking Pin at TDC and checked the physical position of the cams, using the Audi Camshaft Locking Bars and everything lined up perfectly. This suggests the crank and cams have been set correctly.

He was unable to re check that the “Hall Sender Wheel” on the Camshaft Adjusters were set spot on as he was unable to get the Setting Tool between the back of the engine and the bulkhead without removing a huge amount of ancillary hoses/electrics etc etc etc, but when he built up the time gear he is certain that it was set correctly and was using the genuine Audi Tool.

He’s check the Oil Pressure which was well within specifications and a new pump had recently been fitted, Compression - Very Good on all eight cylinders, And now were at a bit of a loss as to what could be the reason for these two codes which relate to both of the Intake Cams being over advanced.

Having referenced http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...5/P0011/000017 I see it refers to checking the following :

Possible Causes

  1. Camshaft Adjustment Valve 1 (N205) faulty - WHAT PART IS THIS AND HOW IS IT CHECKED

  2. Fuel Pump Relay (J17) faulty - NO REASON TO BELIEVE THIS IS FAULTY AS THE CAR WAS RUNNING PERFECTLY PRIOR TO THE TIMING REBUILD

  3. Mechanical Timing not correct, including Chain and/or Belt timing - CHECKED, CRANK SET AT TDC USING CRANK LOCKING PIN AND CHECKED IT HAD LOCATE CORRECTLY. CAMS CHECKED AND LINED UP WITH AUDI CAM LOCKING PLATES, AGAIN ALL LINED UP PERFECTLY.

Only item that we have not re checked to make sure it’s one hundred percent perfect (But he is certain he set it correctly during build up and used the Audi Setting Tool) is the “Hall Sender Wheel.”

Is there anything which we could have overlooked…

HELP PLEASE.

Thanks Jim

#2

Jim are there any misfire codes? There’s lots of threads on this lately. Do you physically have the car and a vag com that you can run tests on?

#3

No misfire codes, just the two Inlet Cam Codes

Yes, I have access to the car and VAGCOM

But it’s 9pm here in England, but I will be back with the car tomorrow morning.

Many Thanks

Jim

#4

You might have something similar to this.

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=2699.0

How long did you start and run the car for. Try the key up for 45 seconds turn off key up for 45 seconds to 2 min and see if the code comes up without starting the car. You have to start there first.

#5

Car was started and ran up for about 15 minutes before being taken on a ten mile drive.

Then the scan was done and he thought it may just have been as a result of the engine initially getting oil pressure back up everywhere, so he cleared the codes and took it for another run, when he noticed the hesitation when going On - Off - On throttle.

Came back and ran a scan and the two codes had returned again.

#6

You definitely want to try running vag com with the car not started. You have to do two key cycles tho. That will tell you if thecams are out of sink without the car running . Sometimes the cams are in sync then you start the car and there off just a little and it gets a code.

#7

Thanks Justin

I’ll give that a try tomorrow and see what I get.

Regards Jim

#8

Welcome Jim you’ve come to the right website. Any of the good information on AZ was most likely taken from here. Lots of vary knowledgeable members here.

#9

Jim definitely do what Justin suggested. From there log 091,092 and 093. Looking at those values will help tell what’s going on real time.

#10

Fitting Piggy Down Pipes and Spacing the o2 sensors wouldn’t cause an of these issues would it…

Justin - Haven had chance to try and get Logs 91, 92, 93 as my tech had it back in pieces when I got to his workshop.

When I arrived he had the cam covers off and rear timing covers and was checking the timing which I watched him check an it is spot on. Now he’s pulled off the mechanical adjusters and electric actuators. He want’s to do the airline check on the adjusters to make sure they’re working correctly, but his line of thought is the oil pressure going mechanical adjusters. Checked oil pressure with take off from oil filter and it was spot on spec. He’s going to make sure that the pressure is getting to the adjusters.

Being an old time mechanic… I’m lost on the electrics, but fine on the mechanics.

As mentioned earlier… The piggy pipes I fitted at the same time as the timing overhaul, along with spacers on the 02 sensors wouldn’t have had any affect would they ???

Putting as much as we can back together tomorrow, but unfortunately only have half day on it… Have to keep the lady happy and spend some time with her.

#11

Just to give you an idea of what we’re working on…


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_20721_zps96f94b05.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_20491_zps26e5ae9e.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_19951_zps63df6149.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/d02d1f04-c4d6-4f4d-9001-2d11d33b1bb8_zps6f18ec6c.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_19311_zps5f3505ae.jpg

#12

Chain warrior?

#13

UPDATE UPDATE :

Ok, so having stripped the back of the engine (With the engine in situ) again to access the timing components, we checked the following.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_21041_zps5141f4d0.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_21051_zpsc495fd1a.jpg

  1. checked the static timing of all the components. Crank (Top Dead Centre Using Audi Crank locating pin) - and made sure it had located in the correct spot on the crank - Spot On.

  2. Checked all chains were tensioned correctly and running correctly on the guides & tensioners, they were spot on.

  3. Checked all camshafts were correctly timed (Using Audi Camshaft locating plates), they were spot on.

So at this point we were able to confirm that the engine had all been timed up correctly when it was re-assembled.

  1. We then removed both of the Mechanical Adjuster Units and checked that they had been assembled correctly at static timing “Locating Pins in Locked Position” and timed correctly… they were, we then checked that they were activating correctly and not jammed and did the airline test to ensure the pins released when the oil pressure would be applied from the Electrical Cam Adjusters… The mechanical adjusters worked perfectly and moved freely after the pin had been released by the air pressure (Which suggests the oil pressure would do the same) - All checked out spot on.

  2. We then decided to work backwards from the Mechanical Adjusters as everything up to this point was ok.

  3. We now moved back to the Electrical Cam Adjuster units and decided to check exactly how these worked. We compared the two new units against our two old units and dis-assembled one of the old units to see how they worked. The main part of the Electrical Cam Adjuster (Picture Below of one of my old units) is mechanically operated by an actuator, the part to the right of the Electrical Cam Adjuster in the picture is the actuator (This is one of the actuators removed from one of the new units). A signal is sent to the from the ECU to the actuator when the variable timing is needed to be adjusted, when the electrical signal is received by the actuator, it activates a piston in the actuator which moves in two directions dependant on what polarity of signal is received, that allows the oil pressure to either flow, or not flow… which then controls the movement of the mechanical adjusters.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_21141_zpsc40d901a.jpg

  1. So… We decided to test one of the old actuators to see exactly how the electrical charge moved the piston inside the actuator (Picture Below). As you can see from the picture below… the actuator has holes along it’s body, and inside the centre of the actuator is a long piston, which dependant on it’s position either blocks these holes or opens them.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/jimgreen72/IMG_21081_zps2ab1c3f0.jpg

When testing both of the old actuators having removed them from the Electric Cam Adjuster Units we applied 12v to the actuator, The piston moved in one direction (Allowing the holes to be open, and when swapping polarity, it moves in the opposite direction (Can’t remember which polarity = open and which = closed, but basically the piston moves up or down within the actuator. Both of the old actuators did this perfectly.

  1. Now we removed both actuators from the new units and carried out the same test…

a. The first new actuator we tested, the piston moved in one direction fine, but when we reversed the polarity, it failed to return the piston back in the opposite direction and the piston remained in the position the initial electrical charge had sent it ! ! ! !

b. We then tested the second new actuator, applying the same 12v electrical supply… I was holding the actuator when the test was done… The piston didn’t move at all, but I could feel the actuator pulsing, but no movement on the piston. We swapped polarity, but again… exactly the same.

All of the items we used throughout the whole rebuild are genuine Audi parts and we are now having to return the parts under warranty…

We did consider putting the old actuators into the new Electric Cam Adjuster Units, but after spending so much money… why should we.

I believe that there is something wrong with the actuators of the new Electric Cam Adjusters, which would explain the fault codes and the ECU recognising that the timing was not retarding when required and throwing the fault codes (This would be because the actuators appear jammed and were not allowing the oil pressure to get to the Mechanical Adjusters to release the pins from the locked position…

Has anyone else had this problem ???

Old on the left, working correctly. New On the right, not working correctly.

Any advice or additional tests I should do ???

#14
#15

Ooops, didn’t mean to post that thread above…

The thread I wanted the “Experts” to read was post #12.

For some reason I can’t find the Modify (Edit) post button…

Cheers Jim

#16

I haven’t ever seen new ones fail but that’s how I test the old ones. If they don’t travel and return you know they are bad. Usually you can tell in disassembly inspection. That is a first that new ones would be jammed. Deffinitly test when you get the new ones. Sounds like you found the issue.

#17

Hi Justin

Thanks for your comments and assistance, really appreciated.

But the new actuators are DEFINATELY not working as they should. We’ll certainly be giving the replacement ones a really good test.

The old actuator pistons work perfectly the moment power is applied, the new ones seem to pulse and tremble and one of them, the piston is not moving at all, but if you hold the actuator in your hand you can feel it pulsing, but no movement of the piston.

Obviously I don’t want to take them apart any further or we won’t be able to return them.

Cheers Jim

#18

I will buy you a Coke if you just keep thsoe BBS CH On that car for the duration of your ownership. 19" CH on a lowered Nogaro B6 is a perfect combo.

effing perfect

#19

Sorry if what I Said came across wrong. You DEFINATELY have bad adjusters from the sound of it.

#20

They’ll be staying on for the duration, believe me. No way can I afford or want anything else. I think they look perfect and not too modern, they suit the age of the car perfectly.

No problem Justin, I didn’t take it the wrong way. I can see from your threads that you know what your talking about and any comments greatly appreciated. Definitely something is not right with the actuators… just not moving the piston on one of them, and the other one isn’t retracting. The old ones that we also tested to see what they should do are both operating perfectly. So tempted to put the old actuators onto the new electric adjusters. It’s a bank holiday here in England, so won’t get any reply from Audi re returning these and getting replacements.

Have to wait until tomorrow, but it will be very easy to show them that they’re not working correctly. I guess it could be a bad batch, but as you mention it’s VERY unusual to get one defective unit, never mind two.

Will see what tomorrow brings.

At the end of the day and in order to save time and also to ensure I didn’t end up with the same problem again with the replacement unit’s… Would it be so bad if I fitted the old actuators into the new units ???

I should have gone on holiday in the car last week, now it looks like I’ll be lucky to get it all back together this week… and that’s the last of my holidays gone… Arghh