Here's something to ponder (WM/NO2 injection)

B8 S4
#1

Given the overall setup of the 3.0T is similar to the 4.2 overall would a setup similar to the JHM Nitrous injection system work?

The Kit

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/images/JHM_B6-B7_S4_Nitrous_System_Complete.jpg

The 4.2 (non-FSI)

http://jhmotorsports.com/products/pictures/nitrous/JHM_B6-B7_S4_Nitrous_System_Installed_No_Front_End_On.JPG

The 3.0T (audi technical overview)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zKjp_OZN34

Is there enough space for this?

Would there be problems with ensuring that there is a good seal so that pressure/charge air doesn’t escape? (although seemingly the pressure isn’t THAT high).

Would there be enough space to actually have any effect on cooling and not just upping the octane? (for WM injection)

Would there be enough space for all the wiring/associated equipment to fit.

I am really just thinking out loud here to see if anyone else has thought about this or if this would be at all possible?

Flame away ;D

#2

they are working at adapting this kit to the 2.7T, if you ping them and show interest in a 3.0T kit I bet it could happen

you use gaskets on either side, should seal fine as long as the gaskets are new

the w/m cooling should be instantaneous

for w/m though, I’d spray it before the blower to help seal things up

#3

Lol love the choice of words here…:slight_smile:

I think water/meth would be fine, but nitrous would be tough esp for a dry kit - we just don’t have the control on SIMOS to richen up the mixture on a 3.0T.

Maybe a wet kit, but I’d be scared of spraying fuel under that blower based on boost/RPM alone…single nozzle wet kits have notoriously poor distribution. Else, how to get 6 jets in that tiny space in the vee. What is the stock fuel pressure anyway, assuming we can tap upstream of the HP pump?

#4

if you were to run the plates like the JHM kit there would be a set of fuel and nitrous jets for each cylinder, they spent a lot of time developing the plates for the best distribution into the 3 valve head, not sure how much of a change would be needed for a 2 valve head

#5

I like where this is going…

My mind is stuck on old-school naaawwzz, those plates in the picture are a good refresher course.

I wonder how SIMOS would respond, weird AFRs or knock detection might stop that party fast. Hope someone finds out…! This is a progressive controller then?

#6

its a progressive controller but that didnt work with the returnless fuel system so its not run in a progressive mode.

not sure on the afr, may change a bit… all of the extra O2 has a proportional amount of fuel added so there would be a deluge of extra O2 to mess up the O2 sensor readings. Decomposed N2O will have a higher O2 per volume content than straight air (21% for air, 33% for decompossed N2)… so the exhaust should have less N2 in the exhaust per specific output, meaning what O2 is left in the exhaust will have less buffer volume increasing the volume fraction of O2, which will make the O2 sensor read leaner (less driving force for the atmospheric O2 to cross the membrane means less voltage and a leaner reading)

#7

That all makes sense to me. Assuming about 25% of the charge is from the N2O system, say a 100 shot, that will affect Lambda accuracy a few percent, I’d guess 3-4% based on what you said, and it would richen things up, so good n safe, not likely to throw a code either.

For water methanol injection, I really like the intake plate setup…it would likely be far better than a pre-tb setup in terms of distribution and atomization in the cc. BUT two drawbacks I can see: 1.) no cooling of the blower/intercoolers/intake mass, and improper fuel metering since the 3.0T does not have an MAF, and 2.) in this scenario IATs will not see this extra cooling. With the wrong IAT comes the wrong calculated MAF and thus leaner fueling. I guess assuming methanol is used in the mix, that will make up for that anyhow, but would have to be calculated. Plus, the system would be safer if the ECU knew there was a denser charge.

Interested to see more comment here…

#8

damn my valve cover gaskets were leaking pretty bad lol :wink:

#9

For me I would be more interested in running w/m simply because I am more familiar with it and in general it seems like it is a bit safer.

I know with something like the Snow Stage 3 kit where it measures injector pulse, maf/map and boost to map the injection works well (I am using that on my 2.0T) although with this car not being a MAF based system I could assume you could simply pull the injector pulse and boost and MAP signal?!

#10

how much timing retard do the cars with all the boltons typically see?

#11

On APR 93 tune, little to none if the right gas is used and it’s cold, maybe 2 degrees at a couple random points on my logs, sometimes none. This is is cold weather though. I didn’t get the new HEX cable until last fall, though.

APR timing is pretty retarded, though. I’d imagine 1320 gains will be minimal, unless they give us somewhere between their 94 tune (17-18 degrees) and 100 tune (24-25 degrees). I’ll admit, I once ran 94 gas on 100 tune just to gently see timing retard activation, i was quickly horrified to see 10 degrees pull on all cylinders on VCDS on medium load on the highway. I rolled to the next exit and switched back to 94…

The 100-tune and it’s 7-8 degrees of extra timing advance is worth between 0.3-0.4 sec, and 3-4 mph, consistently at the strip from my car and from what I have seen in others.

I don’t have the balls (yet) to run the 100-tune 25 degrees of timing advance on pump gas with water/meth injection without some sort of fail-safe (which SIMOS doesn’t have yet, would be nice if tuners considered a water/meth injection tune). Since there’s no tuner support, it’s possible to cut a engine sensor via relay if the water/meth fails, I guess, but it would have to be a sensor that cuts load instantly (bypass valve comes to mind).

I haven’t logged on the road course yet, and this would be the more likely use for me to combat the intake/supercharger heat soak. Plus, I have an almost unlimited supply of 50/50 water meth at my work, we have to pay to burn the stuff in a stack.

#12

^^ free water meth… noted!

#13

I agree with what J said on 100, can’t comment on 93… Here is what I saw on my 11.78 pass

average timing was 23.7 with a peak of 25.125, one cylinder had 0 timing pull and another had an average of 2.5 timing pull, IAT’s averaged 53C, air mass averaged 1245 with a peak of 1360, boost averaged 15.3ish with a peak of 15.6ish, I saw NO bypass…

Unfortunately, I logged in normal mode so the sampling sucks…

#14

good info guys, thanks… so clearly the cars could use the octane. I’ve gotten used to the 4.2s and other N/A motors where a good set of headers w/ no cats and youre fine on pump.

#15

While the timing pull doesn’t seem to be that crazy, meth is the ULTIMATE mod for street driven FI cars. Between the safety it puts on the combustion chamber and the cooling you can’t beat it. Most of these guys run race gas though which has similar effects (resistance to detonation) so I’m not sure if the meth would help ON TOP of race gas.

Plus the nitrous tune won’t be out for a LONG time. These tuners are just getting into the game and some of them have paid big money just to figure out how to flash the ECU. Custom tunes won’t be available in the next few years

#16

[quote=“AudiA4_20T,post:15,topic:3344”]
Really? You would be surprised… lol

#17

we had a good discussion on this somewhere with the B5 guys…throwing E85 in the mix and its qualities as well as the great cooling properties it possesses. Search for it…it was recent. Meth was addressed for sure.

#18

what kind of low level controls do the meth kits have? I’d be worried about running it dry and not having it respond in time.

#19

people always say ‘you just fill it when you get gas’

they also tend to use the windshield washer reservoir for the liquid, so that it has a built in warning in the car when it’s about 10-20% from being empty.

#20

thats good and all, but user error related failures happens a lot, I see it every day with far more valuable pieces of equipment and far more intrusive warning systems.