you’re not buddies? I thought you were. That’s generally considered a connection. Linked in told me so
you’re strangely quiet on the content above
may not make sense to meet me since we don’t have remotely similar modlists otherwise, however if you make a pass at Cayuga, we have about 4 different JHM tuned cars who have made 10-20 passes each there, and can draw pretty strong comparisons from your results.
Pretty great summary.
Also, only a fool thinks an exhaust is an exhaust. I understand the interest in ebwerks because they are practically giving away the exhuasts, but like Saki mentions they haven’t been proven anywhere. Not on a dyno or acceleration testing…well maybe Mick did some BS runs, but he also did very shady stuff like strip the car and ran lighter wheels to improve his delta because he was basically an ebwerks spokesman and didn’t pay a dime for his system.
That sounds good to me! Let me know when you gentleman decide to go again!
Did JHM own worldwide right to all 2.75" catbacks with an X-Pipe?
I totally agree back in the day that all he did was take their design and do their best job at recreating it themselves. I just found it funny that back then it was a “straight copy” and now suddenly they are “Not even close”. Honestly I never gave 2 shits, it’s just funny how things have changed.
[quote=“sakimano,post:276,topic:5833”]
Woooahhh…making more assumptions, are we? Why don’t you just go ahead and throw in the “You don’t even own an RS4”
The S4 and RS4 forums are side by side, or the same depending on forum and I’ve been around for some years so I’m not completely naive. I think I’ve even read posts by you where you say there are S4 owners like me who likely know more about the RS4 than some actual RS owners.
65vetteC6 has FT on a friends list and suddenly they are “connected”…jeez. Alex has been selling parts for a few years now, but suddenly his stuff is “connected to FT”. It’s these kinds of assertions that make me question the validity of posts on here. (also he was only the source of one of the motors…I was thinking the other one was FT’s engine, not the one from Alex)
Well this is why many of us stand up to retell what heppened.
If you missed it.
THE EB exhaust started out as a stright copy. Then when it came time to mass produce the exhaust things drastictly changed. Over time the exhaust was said to be too expensive. So to bring costs in line changes were made. Those changes were said to have made an impact in performance. When you look at the results it seems consistant that the EB makes no real performance gain when compaired to other exhausts.
You dont see anyone talking bad about magnaflow or the other few 2.75 offerings. Why because they seem to do fine.
and I think it’s funny that you’re not listening
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it was a copy of the concept. Like two songs that sound identical. Not the same song as in a recording of the original…but a total ripoff. See Tom Petty and Sam something.
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they released prototypes with the identical mufflers etc. Those mufflers however were not available on the production version of the exhaust.
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I wrote not even close above referring to the X pipe design and later on the comments about the muffler quality. Read the fucking screen.
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=2646.msg108515#msg108515
As far as ‘did JHM have worldwide rights to 2.75" on a catback’…that’s funny and absurd. Of course not. However, conceptually, they did hold the ethical rights to being the original 2.75", with an x pipe, and Sebring tuning mufflers on an Audi RS4 catback. And when someone copies that concept exactly, it’s pretty fucking lame. That’s why Ben was called out for it.
Ben admitted he copied the design anyway. He saw the JHM design was succesful, and saw that they were out of production for a year, and took the opportunity to make a buck. Since they’re giving them away now, I doubt it was too profitable though.
sarcasm, do you understand it?
I’ve learned not to argue endlessly with people here so I wont keep responding. It’s funny how I point out how we agree on things and yet you still think I just can’t comprehend. It’s just about as funny as how you fail to see such an obvious point. Before a part was “An exact carbon copy rip-off”…Now they’re “Not Even Close”.
This is the main point I was making and all I’ve heard so far is excuses of why those statements are not contradictions.
Enjoy pointless banter and derailing Daniels thread more. I just hope for gods sake his car gets back on the road eventually. He’s spent enough to go through 3 B6/7 S4’s at this point.
Wow… where to begin… just got home from work and caught up on where my thread has gone! If this keeps up, i fear my build thread will end up in the war room! :
Couple things…
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I had no idea that i was about to start a shit storm in here when i announced i was going with an EBWerks catback… I have since read through a few more posts on QuatroWorld and AZ from 2012… and i get it now. I get that they took a cue from JHM and saw an opportunity… what i dont get is how their system, with identical pipe diameter, similar (but NOT identical x-pipe), and high-flow mufflers, could possibly hamper performance when compared to JHM’s system or better yet a stock system (as some have claimed people lost power with EB)… it makes no logical sense. Show some proof where you have two identical cars… 1 running JHM, 1 running EBW… JHM is faster. I want to see one example. Not hearsay on a group of RS4’s, all SC’d, and one had EBW and it was the slowest… thats a cop out. Give full specs on all cars and maintenance history, or dont mention it as fact. Ill tell you what… once my car gets back on the road (and its been off a year as of 10/31 :’( ) ill meet anybody that wants to actually get to the bottom of this, who is currently running a JHM catback… meet at a reputable dyno/tuning shop… we run both cars with both systems, and compare numbers. Ill have a JHM tune, and JHM downpipes… shouldnt be too hard to find a comp setup. Hell, ill even pay for the labor on the swap. Then we can post the results and put this to bed… fair? :-*
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Saki, you need to tone it down. You come off as a real dick in your posts. Nobody is attacking JHM or unjustifiably defending EBW. You dont need to preach at me, or anybody else in here about the quality of JHM products. I am coming off a JHM S4 platform that basically utilized every part they had with the nitrous kit at the center… hell the car blew up while i was spraying their kit, and i still shout their praises. So spare me the rhetoric.
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Why are people convinced that 65vette sold me FT’s blown motor? He explained to me where it came from and why he was working on rebuilding it. There are no loose ends to tie up here… why are people jumping on him for absolutely no reason?
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Just to briefly get back to the EBW kit and why i chose it… I read a lot of positive feedback from people that had installed it. They said they felt noticeable gains, and loved the sound, and the build quality. That coupled with the fact that I could have it shipped out in a couple of days, vs the always unknown lead time on JHM exhaust fab (sorry guys, its true, i once waited 8-10 weeks when i was quoted 2-4), and with a cost savings of several hundred dollars, my mind was made. Remember this is the second engine swap i am doing this season… saving a few hundred really helps right now! So i pulled the trigger.
Lets all move on, and let the facts speak for themselves once i get this thing back on the road. I plan to dyno it and track it. So ill get some stats. and i promise, if the numbers point that way, i will be the first to admit it and order up a JHM exhaust!
And lastly… at least i hope that nobody can actualy claim this catback doesnt sound good…
And thats with cats :o
Wow … you take this stuff pretty serious LOL .
If I won’t last around here because you have no sense of humour than so be it.
You seem to have taken my post as me giving some sort of actual evidence of performance, I intended hyperbole to highlight how absurd all this is. To put my “bullshit” to rest, I assure you, there is no “brand x” exhaust system, don’t worry they will not steal JHM sales lol.
Regardless how you spin it, you are arguing about the performance of one system to another and everything you have posted has implied that one system (JHM) will have substantially better performance than another (Eb works which according to some is comparable to stock).
So if a while back the EB product had 2.5" mufflers … is it a possibility that they have changed the design to 2.75"? The OP says the design is 2.75 all through so… perhaps they did.
I mean even JHM has changed some of their products including their headers to improve performance… is it really that far fetched to assume someone else did?
The OP asked for evidence in regards to the claims that EB’s product has lacklustre performance… all you guys have posted is forum gossip and anecdotal stories of things that went on years ago. I know that not all exhausts are equal… but two that have comparable build qualities, materials and features are most likely going to have comparable results with a small margin of difference, the fact that you feel otherwise leans towards my first comment " why do people think that one design is going to yield massive gains in performance compared to the others?".
Yeah… “massive” is a strong word, but people here seem to think the difference will be substantial enough to be arguing on the internet and telling the OP not to buy it. If the EB is 2.75" throughout and they are “giving them away” why wouldn’t the op grab it? Would the supposed performance of the improved X pipe design and mufflers really yield enough of a gain to close the cost gap to the AR preferred JHM unit? Keep in mind he doesn’t have an RS4 factory exhaust, he is doing a swap…
Don’t get me wrong, I love JHM products, I know the OP does as well… I have no vested ties to EB or any other brand, I have a magnaflow hahaha
It’s funny you guys write shit down and then tap dance once someone points out the absurdity of some of it.
If you don’t mean something don’t say it.
Dsgray…even if you dyno it and track it…the info will truly mean nothing when it’s in an S4 Avant.
ALso, You started the shit storm with your comment about the EBwerks quality holding up better than JHM/FI…lol where in the world did you hear this? Honestly, for someone demanding factual data about performance of the systems, can you also point us to this gem…where is this proof.
The EBwerks exhaust showed poor to zero dyno gains
The EBwerks exhaust showed barely any delta in the 1/4mile, in fact was worse on Mick’s car
The EBwerks JHM stg 1 car is the slowest and has the shittiest trap out of multiple stage one cars by 3-4mph
You can blame those results on anything you want because almost everyone in this thread arguing with Saki is picking and choosing the information they want to look at.
He showed you his personal gains (actual acceleration data) with just a JHM exhaust stock tuned with cats.
I’m not sure if anyone has exhaust only data, but really isn’t the acceleration data from Saki way better than a BS dynograph?
I understand you went with them because of price point and availibility, that is understandable…but they are just being honest with the things we’ve seen, like I listed above.
Just PM clochner or someone to clean the thread up if you want…
To back up what the guys are saying. We are just reporting what information is out there and what has been the consesious. Its the same thing with the PES or VF kits. Lots of data and lots of negitive reports. With the EB some guys reported a loss of power feel and there seems to be measureable data that has showed there is some sort of possible flaw.
Its not anyone doing anything other then warning eachother. To say that the information is bias due to bad feelings would be a bit short sided. I think thats where there is some resistance. Like I said there are other 2.75 exhausts out there that you wouldnt see the guys here saying dont work. The example I was looking for before was the MTM exhaust. Its alittle expensive but its one that many guys here have sang prase about
When you say that i said it was better, i assume you are referring to this: "I believe the mufflers are packed with (stainless) steal wool, and have a better reputation for longevity than the mufflers used by JHM in their FI setup. "
This came from a 2014 thread that weighed the pros and cons, it was a mix of people that owned the system, and critics… at the time it was sited that JHM was using fiberglass pack, and the style being used by EBWerks would hold up better. (is this false? if so, please tell me) It was also sited that the piping was finished with a treatment that would hold up better. Along side this, there were several comments that from people who had purchased the setup that said it was of very high quality.
Is it superior to JHM? who the hell knows… but i find it very hard to believe that its as much a pile of garbage as somebody would think by ready this thread… the slamming of this system is really pretty mind blowing.
Now i offered up a side by side test just to settle this debate even though I dont really care… BUT, apparently dyno results are total bs in this world, even if its testing two different systems on the same car on the same dyno on the same day… im amazed at that… guess every dyno shop should just have their machines hauled off to the junk yard tomorrow. :
When you say that EBWerks system showed no delta on the 1/4, can you be more specific? Same car running a 1/4 where the only change was an EBW catback? Same day? Same millage level? Same temps? there are so many variables that could cause a similar run… you cant preach the uselessness of a dyno in one breath, and then tell me that all 1/4 runs are the same regardless of variables in weather, car tune, and driver reaction.
Historically i have defended this forum when people tell me that its full of single minded people who are incapable of having a logical conversation… im starting to rethink that stance.
I forgot about how ebwerks downgraded the quality of the materials in a desperate effort to save cost and maintain profitability. Very similar to the Apr exhaust fiasco. Well pointed out Justin.
They made the changes and informed nobody. People thought they were getting a replica of the jhm exhaust and could save a few hundred bucks. LOL
You’re quoting me saying ‘not even close’ when I was responding to the guys comment that the ebwerks x pipe was a better design than jhm.
The you’re taking that and saying I said the entire ebwerks exhaust is not even close to the entire jhm exhaust?
That’s the definition of taking something out of context. Let me do the same to you…
Bc sniper, what do you do for health and fitness?
Really? But what about work… Do you have steady employment and support your family?
Very strange path you’ve gone down here bc sniper.
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You’re seriously on this site defending dyno testing as proof of concept ? LOL. Is this your first day here?
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Nobody said ebwerks is garbage. Someone makes a comment and then you misquote them and turn it into a superlative and as extreme as possible. Then you get called out for it and cry. You just did it again with the garbage comment. Ebwerks had no integrity and tried to ripoff jhm. Ebwerks lied to customers by offering one system they showcased and dynod (high quality stainless with sebring mufflers) and then ended up selling downgraded steel and cheap undersized mufflers. That’s pathetic but if that’s the kind of company you want to support go for it. Try those Chinese guys XS or whatever.
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If you want to complain about the site because people are posting about FACTS that disagree with your opinions and what you’ve purchased, by all means continue complaining because that will NEVER change here. We saw the dyno testing. We saw the performance testing. You missed it 3 years ago? Tough shit. Go do your homework, but don’t act like just because you bought a discount ebwerks catback everyone is supposed to rewrite history with a version that makes you feel better.
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Where are the performance testing result SUPPORTING ebwerks? You’re demanding a whole lot from those saying ebwerks didn’t do well when tested (because you’re either uninformed and need to be spoonfed and/or you are too lazy to google) yet you are sharing NOTHING that would support your own thesis. Do you see the hypocrisy?
For the lazy, ignorant and uninitiated. Good starting point.
I’m not going to post anymore in this thread because none of my explanations will be good enough and I’m not going to argue and run people off that I feel can be great members for this site.
You can’t just wander in here…say something about a quality comparison that you saw somewhere and then scrutinize my our rebuttal to no end. Who did a side by side quality analysis of the two exhaust systems you read about DSGRAY? Honestly, were they the same age, same metal, same environment, same road mileage. The post you read should really be pointless too, considering you are scrutinizing the performance data that was brought up.
I’m sure your car will sound amazing…I’m sure your exhaust will get most of the engines potential out of it, but I guess we will truly never know.
Also, when you posted about JHM or APR tune, I thought you were making a lulz thread. It would take you 5 seconds to figure out that APRs NA tunes offer NOTHING, that information is pretty transferable from the S4 4.2s.
I’d recommend waiting 5-10k before tuning that motor too. #1 because it’s a swap by a shop who may have never done this exact work before. Make sure all OEM kinks are worked through before adding too much on the plate because it could turn into another nightmare. #2 the bottom end is rebuilt by a guy in his garage, before anyone freaks out I have a ton of respect for 65vette, but he doesn’t do this for a living on a daily basis and he doesn’t provide you a warranty on his work. SO please get some miles on the car before going too crazy. The tune is only software and it can’t fix or keep you safe from a mechanical issue, but a tune will make that engine work harder and it will expose an issue pretty quickly. I’d just want to be comfortable with the install and the health of the motor before trying to pull max power from it.