After 4 years of working with him, I trust him completely with VAG ECU stuff. It’s his main focus. He reprogrammed all kinds of things on my RS6 over the years, and a good number of those crazy horsepower cars you see doing the standing mile in the “Moscow unlim 500” were done by him.
I’ll see how it feels (and what the logs say) afterwards and if I don’t like it flashing back to stock takes no time at all.
It’s funny I have never seen one impressive audi at that Moscow race group. They’re always ‘700 hp’…’ 900 hp’… Then they run 11.6@121… Aka what a 525 hp audi should run.
Must’ve been looking at the wrong ones 
Here’s a C6 RS6, claimed 800 crank, with a full interior running 11.0 at 131.5 mph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHqIwrcOF0k
(189 mph after a mile)
Or a “1000 crank” Avant with a 2 second 60ft time still doing 11.1 at nearly 135 mph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHqIwrcOF0k (200mph after a mile)
RWD cars in particular tend to have bad times, it’s a low grip track which is quite bumpy in the launch zone. Not much of a concern for AWD cars but better look at trap speeds than actual times there.
that’s the thing…800 hp cars don’t trap 131.
JHM has an RS4 that weighs about 4000 lbs and traps 130 mph while making around 600-650 hp (it’s like much less, but let’s give the RS6 a chance).
An RS6 is what…350 lbs heavier? Traps don’t get too badly impacted by weight, yet the RS6 you posted is trapping 130 with another 150-200 hp. That’s not adding up.
Stock RS6 traps what…115-120? 130 car is making around 150 HP over stock. Not 240.
Then the 1000 hp car only picked up 3.5 mph on the 800 hp car? 200 hp does not equal 3.5 mph. That’s maybe 50 hp. So unless DA was 130-150 hp worse for the 1000 hp car…or in otherwords about 7000 feet…that’s not looking right.
I run the quartermile list here. I have entered about 300 quarter mile times for Audis ranging from A4s to RS6s…from B5 to C7. Those numbers don’t add up. just trying to clarify that I’m making these observations based on experience, not a hunch. The only Audis I’ve seen that make ‘1000 hp’ and ran the quarter mile were trapping 150+ MPH. Not 130. 130 MPH Audis make around 500-550 whp depending on gearing.
You have to compare C6 RS6 runs only to C6 RS6 runs…if the stock car has 580 hp and does 12.4 at 117-118 then you’re already looking at a car which is pretty slow for being 580hp. They ARE heavy. MRC weighed a stock sedan with fluids in it and it was 2135 kg / 4700 lbs.
And they’ve got slushboxes. Then you have the typical tuner “rounding it up” thing. In their vids you often have identical cars from different tuners where the one with 50hp less wins. But that doesn’t make them slow. No 4700lb car that does 200 mph after a mile is running poorly
On the same track a stock 1000hp Veyron ran 11.25 at 133mph. 192mph after a mile. Considering it’s a lighter car than the RS6 with better aero… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTSbPB3nXDM
Another Veyron ran better and did 10.98 at 137 mph - 202 mph after a mile.
But those cars are supposed to be faster than even a 1000 hp RS6, anyway. In that perspective, the beforementioned RS6s are performing as you’d expect from them.
The Veyron actually weighs about the same as the RS6. Around 4500 lbs. In decent conditions, the Veyron traps comfortably in the 145 MPH range I can’t speak for that one or the conditions when he ran.
If you’re talking about an RS6 trapping 117 MPH stock, picking up 13 MPH of trap speed does not take 220 hp. Picking up 16 MPH does not take 420 HP.
You’re also assuming the RS6 was making 580 hp stock. The trap speeds alone tell us that this is debatable. That means the delta is even worse.
Veyron is 4200lbs. If we assume the official numbers are as far off as they are for the RS6 let’s say 4400lbs.
In ideal circumstances you could compare a dragstrip on the other side of the world to that piece of tarmac in Russia, but in the real world it seems to be difficult.
The fastest of two Veyrons trapped about the same as the “1000 hp” RS6. That’s the baseline.
If you want the best possible estimate of power you’re better off ignoring the 1/4 results altogether and looking at the speed after 1 mile.
“800 hp” RS6 189 mph
“1000 hp” RS6 200 mph
1000 hp Veyron 1 192 mph (headwind perhaps?)
1000 hp Veyron 2 202 mph
Doesn’t look particularly unusual does it?
And picking up 13 mph in the traps can take a lot more or a lot less than 220 horsepower, depends what the starting point is. It’s not exactly a linear equation.
So let’s talk about something of relevance.
JHM has the fastest tuned B7 RS4s by a long shot
They also have the fastest supercharged full interior/street tires.
They also have plans to take the car to the next level with engine builds
Their calibrator works for one of the largest automobile manufacturers in the world…on their most exclusive platforms.
[quote]SVT has always been dedicated to value, delivering products that offer the highest level of performance and driving dynamics for the money. It remains as one of longest-running, most-successful high-performance vehicle programs in American automotive history.
[/quote]
Why let your mechanic tinker on the RS4? You’re giving him the opportunity to screw something up… and sure flashing back to stock may be “easy” (although I don’t think it is as easy as you think) but the damage may be done before that flash back to stock can happen.
I’m going by road tests where periodicals have weighed them. i.e. Car and Driver weighed one at 4480 lbs. Another was 4475 lbs.
As for picking up MPH in trap speeds, in the 120-130 range, it is actually pretty linear around that formula. Again, I run the quarter mile list here. I’m not just guessing.
The 1 mile stuff is pretty useless for a number of reasons
1 . it’s dangerous as hell, and the guys are often taking their foot out of it out of fear. That track is janky as fuck. I’m shocked nobody has died yet.
the ability of a car to accelerate from a stop to a point 1320 feet away is a global standard acceleration test. There’s a reason every car platform on earth (other than the Audi market where people rebel against it to explain away poor results) uses it. If I had a dollar for every 500, 600 or 700 whp Audi owner who has run shit times at the 1/4 mile because their tuner wasn’t as smart as they thought he was, I would have enough money to buy the best performing RS4 tune, by far. The JHM tune.
I don’t understand reinventing the wheel.
JHM has owned an Rs4 for 4 years and has developed the tune over that period on their in house car, and then on a dozen beta cars, and the hundreds of RS4s they have tuned since. It has handily crushed every other competitor’s tune on the NA RS4 (it’s not even remotely close)…and in fact their competitors have come to them for help on their own RS4 tuning when they have failed. Shockingly, JHM helped them.
So for 500 euros or whatever it is, I can’t see why anyone would give the car to a guy who has had not amazing results based on those RS6 results…tuning TURBO cars (easiest way to pick up delta on earth)…rather than give it to the only tuner in the world who has extracted power out of the NA Audi S/RS cars. Your tuner…what are his results like on the RS4? or any NA Audi?
But hey, maybe you’re on to something and come up with the new latest/greatest. We’re just giving advice on what has been proven succesful is all. If there’s a new great tune out there, let’s see it.
The bar is pretty low other than JHM, so the race for 2nd place isn’t so tough to win. You’ve got an MRC car with tune/decat/catback exhaust/intake/port and polish manifold etc that ran 12.54 @ 109.7 MPH. Everyone in Europe says MRC is fantastic. As the results show…they’re kinda not that great at this. They sell tunes and Milltek exhausts which are replicas of the stock exhaust…and they selll port and polished manifolds for $1000…and run marginal times when tested independantly at the dragstrip. Not tested on the MRC i in house dyno.
The stock record is 12.75 @ 108.3 (my car). the NA record is 12.21 @ 113.7 (mistro with JHM bolt ons). All times were run in great DA. Funny enough my car with nothing but full JHM catted exhaust (no tune, stock everything else) went 12.51 @ 110.5. I will buy you a Coke if you beat that :). I will accept PBOX times since there’s not likely a proper dragstrip near you. Just send me the file for verification of elevation etc. and if you beat me, that Coke will be on its way to Moscow! Your tuner probably has a pbox lying around if he’s hooked up with those dragstimes.info boys.
Well you might not have noticed but JHM is nowhere near here. They do not take orders from Russia. (not via their site anyway) and even if they did, it’s practically impossible to ship anything straight to me here.
In a few months I will drive the car to Europe where I will do some actual performance mods. In the mean time, I’m willing to spend 175$ to remove the torque limiter, mainly.
And I’m not convinced JHM have the outright fastest. I think there are several tuners which have reached about the same level which we can consider a physical limit of the engine whilst still NA.
Europe doesn’t have the same drag strip culture/facilities and times don’t tend to be directly comparable. For what it’s worth, this is the fastest NA RS4 I’ve ever seen at high speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N_C3jz42X0
By a German tuner using a very expensive and elaborate airbox.
So that’s still 225 lbs below what an RS6 sedan weighed in at. Add some more for the Avant.
[quote]As for picking up MPH in trap speeds, in the 120-130 range, it is actually pretty linear around that formula. Again, I run the quarter mile list here. I’m not just guessing.
[/quote]
Appreciated, but it still depends on the type of car you are comparing. Different gear ratios and power curves do make a difference, as well as driveline loss differences. The C6 RS6 has pretty tall gearing to say the least. My C5 by the way dynoed at 540 crank and I think my trap speed from GPS runs in the past is ~112.
[quote] That track is janky as fuck. I’m shocked nobody has died yet.
[/quote]
They’re doing only 1000 meters this year. Even the Russians have a sense of safety it seems.
[quote]it’s a measure of aero as much as it is of power.The resistance at these levels is insane, and makes it a poor measure.
[/quote]
True, but it does take weight out of it for a large part as well. Either way, do you see a 600hp JHM RS4 reaching 200 mph after a mile? I personally don’t, regardless what the trap was after a quarter of the distance.
If all cars trap unusually low there (and a case could certainly be made for that) then it’s not really relevant what the times look like compared to times on your continent. We can use known yardsticks like a stock Veyron or a mapped GT-R and work out the difference.
[quote]The stock record is 12.75 @ 108.3 (my car). the NA record is 12.21 @ 113.7 (mistro with JHM bolt ons). All times were run in great DA. Funny enough my car with nothing but full JHM catted exhaust (no tune, stock everything else) went 12.51 @ 110.5 I will buy you a Coke if you beat that
[/quote]
Does your car still have the precats? As I’m not sure whether you mean stock cats with a JHM exhaust or a full JHM exhaust with cats. I fully believe a B7 with a more free flowing exhaust will pick up more extra speed than one with only a remap. The stock mapping is good aside from the TQ limitation which doesn’t come into play once you’re launched.
But you really, really can’t draw too many comparisons with strip times from the UK. Even within the UK you have “faster” and “slower” strips and that’s not counting the randomness of wind direction. In germany there’s no permanent drag strip that I know off. They just compare 100-200 km/h on the autobahn. Which you fellas can’t really do for fear of getting thrown in jail. So how can you realistically compare? I’d say even the Arthur test is more reliable, if you can find a consistently flat piece of road and do it in both directions (and with the same size wheels/tires obviously)
Really?
It looks like he was in 6th gear because 3-8k took like 3 days.
it’s not actually…the RS6 tests showed the same weight. Avant a bit heavier (around 80-90 lbs). but the sedan is 4500 lbs, just like the Veyron.
[quote]True, but it does take weight out of it for a large part as well. Either way, do you see a 600hp JHM RS4 reaching 200 mph after a mile? I personally don’t, regardless what the trap was after a quarter of the distance.
[/quote]
Not sure. It certainly is something nobody will ever bother to test.
p.s. JHM can ship you a cable and you can just login to tune your car from anywhere in teh world. There are JHM tuned Rs4s on every single inhabited continent now. NA, SA, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania
oh and I forgot…the drag data on the Veyron vs. the RS6 is pretty interesting. Veyron is terrible
Veyron - drag coefficient of Cd=0.41 (normal condition) and Cd=0.36 (after lowering to the ground) 2.07 m2 (22.3 sq ft).[23] This gives it a drag area, the product of drag coefficient and frontal area, of CdA=0.74 m2 (8.0 sq ft).[/quote[
RS6 - not sure…but the C5 was 0.28 and the C7 is 0.24! Not sure on the actual numbers for frontal area but needless to say, these numbers are pretty compelling when understanding top speed delta. Top speed is almost entirely drag limited on these cars with big power. The Veyron is a brick wall compared to the RS6 when it comes to drag. Frontal area it might have an advantage. Overall nothing like you’d expect I bet.
5th gear. He was doing 60-167mph and it’s a huge amount faster than a standard car.
It is and remains the fastest NA RS4 I’ve seen at high speed. As German owners and American/Canadian owners have totally different ways of measuring their car’s performance it’s presently difficult to compare.
Why in the world would you show your acceleration in 5th from 60-167?
I guess I don’t get it man, good luck with everything. Nothing about that video is impressive and 60-167mph is about as useful to me as a submarine.
Well then I guess scales differ too. A UK sedan with a full tank was weighed at 2135 kilograms.
Not to Russia. Firstly their website doesn’t allow it, secondly even if I contacted them and found a way to pay them that they trust they won’t get ripped off I’ll be in for 2 months of paperwork at this end.
When I’m in Europe in summer I might consider it, but I might as well get it done in Germany if the price is right. Dollar/Euro rates not very favorable right now.
I looked at the 1/4 mile list you compiled, and it’s a great collection of data. Which also shows that you can’t take anything for granted when it comes to comparing states of tune. There’s an RS4 there on a stock ECU trapping 113.7 on nothing but exhaust mods (okay, and intake spacers) while a different car with a JHM tune and full JHM exhaust traps 111.1 mph. Imagine if those were the only data points you had (like the one car from the UK) you could draw all kinds of weird conclusions. There’s another JHM tuned car there with more mods than the other one which was still over 1 mph slower in the traps than Mistro’s car on the stock ECU.
So, the ECU code isn’t everything. Seems like it’s half the story at most.
I also found out that a realistic trap speed for a well supercharged car is more like 125 mph. With quite a few lightweight bits on them. If we assume 600 horsepower traps about 125 mph, and 400 traps about 110 we’re looking at 200 horsepower for 15 mph. Not that far removed from the RS6 numbers we were talking about earlier, a bigger, heavier more powerful car which will always use a bit more extra power to get the same increase.
Why in the world would you show your acceleration in 5th from 60-167?
[/quote]
Because they actually drive those speeds, regularly? In Germany, it’s a normal enough thing to do. There’s a big world out there you know, some bits of it are going to be quite different from what you consider normal.
[quote]Nothing about that video is impressive
[/quote]
Because you don’t understand what’s actually quick for an RS4 in that speed range or…?
If it’s fast at high speed it’s going to be fast at low speed as well, obviously…not too big a leap of logic I hope. Except it’s easier to judge at high speed because it takes longer. I honestly can’t tell much from a 0-60 video as the difference between a fast RS4 and a slow one is maybe half a second. I can’t perceive that very well personally.
I wouldn’t do anything ecu wise to your car. Leave it alone for now at least as you had a ton of issues that you might not yet have seen. It’s best to get the car up and running well for a few hundred miles before you add anything else to the mix.
It’s a shame you might not be able to get the jhm tune because it is by far the best tune there is for the rs4 and that’s by a long shot. Im talking im both performance and protection. I know in Russia and most of Europe it’s hard to get proof of anything so that makes all the claims that much easier to bloat.